I DON'T like Stormblood RDM

[CrashofZenki]

How about.. Utility buff scales with how many is in the party? Solo = full utility, Light Party = 1/4th effect each, Full Party = 1/8th effect each.

and on top of this... exceeding 2 utility DPS will give a small tax
3 utility DPS per party will put a 2/3th on total utility given to party
4 utility DPS per party giving 1/3th of total utility given to party

But keep utility DPS very close to non-utility DPS.

Would ease up the pDPS gap between no utility and utility DPS.
Maintain openings to non-utility classes while not bringing down utility DPS to the point where they dont matter.

[Kabooa]

I do think that could do well if tuned right, but then it's a matter of perception.

"Rested XP bonus" vs "XP Death Penalty", ya know?

The two would probably require the same amount of work tuning wise, but one of them creates a negative "We don't want this" compared to a "We do want this" while achieving the same result.

[CrashofZenki]

Not exactly. A formula like the one I posted would help utility classes do better in solo or small groups too, instead of being tuned for 8man and fall very short on other areas. I know this game is focused on team play, and I think it should too, but some aspects of the game needs some love for solo effort aswell as team effort. Not only this, but would also help in situations like... "Everyone died of the DPS, except for a utility DPS. we died at 0.1%. If only it was a non-utility DPS that survived we would have beat it."

[Kabooa]

I see.

I see a fairly diverse amount of feedback from various players when it comes to Shadowbringers job direction, so my suggestion included a few other considerations Namely it tries to hit a few notes.

1. The RDPS>PDPS supporters
2. Not alienating the PDPS=RDPS jobs.
3. Re-emphasizing a burst window (Though not necessarily a 120s mystic alignment)
4. Minimizing the impact / tuning needed in the world at large (Since this would literally be for the benefit of Savage and Ultimate only)
5. Encourage party diversity (AKA not hard lock a comp)

In my opinion, the blurb from the previous page aims to accomplish all that.

This is going to be a lengthy one, and we'll be using some arbitrary number values to illustrate the concept.

Quick Primer: RDPS vs PDPS

RDPS or "Raid DPS": This is the baseline damage that the job brings to a group. This includes personal DPS and all DPS given by buffs and minus all DPS taken by buffs.
PDPS or "Personal DPS": This is the end amount of damage sourced from your character, including all buffs.

Defining "Out of the Box": I've been using this term, but basically this is raw RDPS the job does assuming a raid size of 1. Therefore, an 'out of the box' RDPS value of 12,000 with Ninja whose trick attack brings on average 2% bonus RDPS has a PDPS value of about 11,760. If Trick attack was an average RDPS increase of 10% (which is like, the same as having 5 dancers), then its PDPS is around 10,800.

To illustrate just how ridiculous that would be in practice, any job that increases the raid's total DPS by 10% would, at the suggested numbers to follow, have to have a PDPS of around 3,000.

A ton of gobblygook.

Let's use the first example first, with a balanced team of two tanks, two healers, and one of each type of dps (Melee, ranged, caster, cannon). We'll use tank = 7500, healer = 5500, and DPS = 12,000 'out of the box'. The total raw RDPS = 74,000.

We'll say each of the Melee, ranged, and casters are the same weight - on average, the support is worth about 2% more RDPS and it always lines up cuz magic. 74,000 * 1.02^3 = approximately 78,529. With a Cannon, you double that RDPS increase for them, netting an additional 749 DPS. 79,278.

Let's say instead of the cannon we add another melee. The same calculation is 74,000 * 1.02^4 = 80,099.

Not bad, it's pretty close.

A small differential, but with the additional role we have yet another tuning lever in the attribute bonus. Team 1 has all roles represented and Team 2 has not.

Lets apply a 1.08 (representing 8% attribute bonus) to team 1 and 1.05 to team 2.

Team 1: 85,620
Team 2: 84,103

What about a double cannon team?

Team 3: (74,000 * 1.02^2 + (24000 * 1.02^2 - 24,000) ) * 1.04 = 81,077

All of this assumes 100% performance by everyone involved. Supposedly SE tunes in unupgraded Tome Gear and slashes that maximum performance, but I can't say for certain. Titan is currently around 75,000 or so, so lets apply a "Casul tax" and slash our totals (We'll assume the presented numbers in this system are in i450 unmelded) by about 15%.

Team 1: 72,777
Team 2: 71,487
Team 3: 68,915

No week 1s for anyone. A fully pentamelded set (we'll use DH because it's easy) over a 0 meld set is an extra 2180 stat points. With DH, that's 36.33% direct hit chance or about 9.075% more damage. Pentamelded team looking like

Team1: 79.872
Team2: 78,456
Team3: 75,634

Week 1s for many people, though multiple cannon jobs are taking a nasty hit.

What if we applied the increased cannon buff to attribute bonus as well from the party system?

In Team 1 we see an increase from 14,578 to 15,658. Total gain 1,080.

In Team 3, we see an increase from 13,498 each to 14017. Total gain 519 each. Still rough for them.

What if the "Cannon buff" itself was a flat 3% rather than being a full house bonus?

In team 3, we see an increase from 13.498 each to 13,757. Even worse.

...Both?

13,498 to 14,536 each. Total increase of 2077.

Team 3 100% total: 83154
Team 3 casul tax total: 70,680
Team 3 pentameld: 77,572.

Summary

System Change
New Role: Cannon. Jobs in this role gain double the effect of party buffs and enemy vulnerabilities, and role attribute bonus.

"Normalized" RDPS and PDPS levels.

Team composition
Team 1 (2 tanks, 2 healers, 1 of each dps role)
Team 2(2 tanks, 2 healers, no cannons, 3 other roles covered)
Team 3(2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 cannons, two other roles covered)

Theoretical Maximum
Team 1: 86,700
Team 2: 84,103
Team 3: 83,154

'Minimum ilvl tune'
Team 1: 73,695
Team 2: 71,487
Team 3: 70,680

'Pentamelded'
Team 1: 80,880
Team 2: 78,456
Team 3: 77,572.

It's late, but you get the idea. These three team set ups cover a fair range of party compositions (though obviously not all), but as a parting note, it seems if we do the doubled attribute buff and cannons adding a flat +attribute bonus rather than being a full set bonus, the stat bonus could be reduced.

Sleeping, tear it apart, I'll check in the morning.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

To illustrate just how ridiculous that would be in practice, any job that increases the raid's total DPS by 10% would, at the suggested numbers to follow, have to have a PDPS of around 3,000.

I played an MMO once, as a support character, and just applying 4 stacks of the basic "always on unless something uses the opposed debuff or dispels" offensive buffs had me increasing raid DPS by ~30%. I had an entire other hotbar of other, shorter term, buffs. So, wow, this really puts THAT in perspective.

Rest of the numbers

Overall a good concept, though it depends on lot on tweaking things like attribute bonus and the exact nature of the cannon buff bonus. An issue that I think is pertinent, but you may not. In completely equalizing out of the box DPS, DPS ceases to be a balancing mechanism for any aspect of a job (or role skills) not covered by damage. This includes things like non-damage support skills, and if the DPS maximum is assessed in a whiteroom it may also not account for difficulty in keeping uptime for specific fights or aspects of a job that prevent that from happening.

As FF14 is currently balanced, non-damage related aspects on DPS tend to be trivial (even if the development team seems to think otherwise, see the impetus for this thread), but this hasn't always been the case in past expansions. I think removing all such skills, or refusing to make new ones, would be to FF14's detriment, but such abilities could further diminish the allure of the DPS advantage Cannon's bring under this model (though ~3% more DPS can be make or break ). Unless, somewhat counter to concept, Cannon's are also granted such abilities. Ex. BLM is returned Apocatastasis or something.

[Brandedblade]

I'm leveling rdm right now, and honestly? Its gameplay loop feels nice, and I'll gladly take the current aoe over Scatter spam anyday. For me the only thing amiss is the potency being too low, I'd be happy as a kite if they just closed the gap between blm and rdm.

[kajv95]

-This satisfies the greater RDPS, lower PDPS dynamic that's been argued for, but isn't currently possible, since you'd be a Subpar support job outside 8 mans-

Let's get one thing out of the way here, being a subpar support job outside of 8 mans has almost always been the case but has rarely, if ever, been argued because the 4-man content isn't giving you dps checks and I'm not sure if it's possible for a support job to satisfy both ends without being inherently overpowered. The way I see it, if you bring something inherently more supportive to 4-man content, you know what you're doing. Let's be fair, 4-man is limited to story content nowadays, and unless story content stops being overly undertuned you could bring 4 healers and still clear it.

I didn't quote this part but I'd be heavily in favor of them adding that fourth dps "role" as well, for reasons you've stated. All I really want is for the jobs in the game to all feel worth it - how we go about it is up for debate. As long as I can go back to arguing lore instead of balance, I'd be happy lol

[Kabooa]

As FF14 is currently balanced, non-damage related aspects on DPS tend to be trivial (even if the development team seems to think otherwise, see the impetus for this thread), but this hasn't always been the case in past expansions. I think removing all such skills, or refusing to make new ones, would be to FF14's detriment, but such abilities could further diminish the allure of the DPS advantage Cannon's bring under this model (though ~3% more DPS can be make or break ).

One of the primary advantages of another role (and the levers it brings) is that we can take another look at non-damage utility. It's hard to justify Monk's damage and mantra when paired against Samurai, or Black Mage and nothing paired against other mages, but the addition of their own role to properly reflect their "selfish" nature means we can more readily define the jobs of both roles and improve their unique non-offensive capabilities.

For example, where a Monk increases party healing, a Dragoon might increase party movement speed, and a Ninja could decoy jutsu someone to reduce the damage they take.

The Samurai, being the selfish jerk he is, could have a notably improved Third Eye / Merciful Eyes - reducing the burden of single healing on them.

You don't always need the party healing, the party movement, or the mitigation (The ole "Any mitigation that doesn't save a GCD isn't good mitigation"), and you won't always need Samurai's self sufficiency, but each of them would have a place depending on the mechanics of the encounter and needs of the group.

[CrashofZenki]

One of the primary advantages of another role (and the levers it brings) is that we can take another look at non-damage utility. It's hard to justify Monk's damage and mantra when paired against Samurai, or Black Mage and nothing paired against other mages, but the addition of their own role to properly reflect their "selfish" nature means we can more readily define the jobs of both roles and improve their unique non-offensive capabilities.

For example, where a Monk increases party healing, a Dragoon might increase party movement speed, and a Ninja could decoy jutsu someone to reduce the damage they take.

The Samurai, being the selfish jerk he is, could have a notably improved Third Eye / Merciful Eyes - reducing the burden of single healing on them.

You don't always need the party healing, the party movement, or the mitigation (The ole "Any mitigation that doesn't save a GCD isn't good mitigation"), and you won't always need Samurai's self sufficiency, but each of them would have a place depending on the mechanics of the encounter and needs of the group.

Or, fix the whole debate once and for all and find grounds from earlier FF games and come up with... SAM having party utility. They have had some in the past, like they were the original "Goad" class. As well as BLM had Elemental debuffs to increase elemental magic done. So it is possible LORE WISE to make them all utility based.

And if you played in ARR You should remember that DRG used to be the selfish DPS. But now has gotten party utility.

Oh and if you denie the fact then I will raise you one and say that NIN did not have a Damage up Debuff, it had however Poison, Blind, Slow, Paralyze and silence in the form of ninjutsu. And the class that had Trick Attack and Sneak Attack in the first place aka.. Thief was for self only, and for only ONE action after the cast.

[Taranok]

I do think that could do well if tuned right, but then it's a matter of perception.

"Rested XP bonus" vs "XP Death Penalty", ya know?

The two would probably require the same amount of work tuning wise, but one of them creates a negative "We don't want this" compared to a "We do want this" while achieving the same result.

Fun fact, you didn't need to bring up XP Death Penalty at all.

When WoW created the Rested XP Bonus system, it wasn't rested XP bonus, it was an Exhaustion mechanic that served as a penalty for playing the game too much. Players absolutely hated the system in testing, so, without changing a single thing about the system, they rebranded it from Exhaustion (or whatever it was called) to a Rested XP bonus. Nothing was changed otherwise. The major difference is that players didn't anchor the high-end XP as normal, and instead anchored the low-end XP as normal, so what was a penalty was now a bonus.

Gearbox had an entire article on what they did to QA their game when players had complaints. Such as Sprinting in Borderlands. Players thought it was too slow, so they made it go to a fisheye lens when you started sprinting, and added a bunch of ground clutter so that you could see it run by the exaggerated camera lens and made it seem like you were moving faster even though the speed wasn't changed at all.

Similarly, Skag Gully was complained about being this large, empty zone that took too long to do anything in as it was primarily a zone you just ran through. So the devs added a ton of monsters to the zone, made it take substantially longer, but changed it from a "passover" zone to a "combat" zone and boom, problem solved.

Perception is key in videogame design, to put it mildly.