Can any team comp clear?

[Zerathor]

When a person finds out there is no holding point for them to win an argument, they instead go over to the phase called personal attack, and will start to call the other person names. Sound familiar?

I insulted your argument, which is not a personal attack. Actually I messed up, i forgot you actually also excluded sam lol. 1/70 chance of that party being made by pure luck. 1.4% chance.

Your argument is because a party formation that only has a 1.4% of forming (that completely misuses the dancer's purpose) hasn't cleared titan, that it must be impossible to do so.

It was you who dodged this fact when pointed out to you, and it was you who is grasping for any hope of not being in the wrong here by accusing people lol.

[CrashofZenki]

I insulted your argument. Actually I messed up, i forgot you actually also excluded sam lol. 1/70 chance of that party being made by pure luck. 1.4% chance.

Your argument is because a party formation that only has a 1.4% of forming (that completely misuses the dancer's purpose) hasn't cleared titan, that it must be impossible to do so.

It was you who dodged this fact when pointed out to you, and it was you who is grasping for any hope of not being in the wrong here by accusing people lol.

I did no such thing. I simply used your argument against me to your own train of thought, and instead of being adult about it you started to personally attack me.
If Utility classes got the treatment they should. and have the posibility to do a bit more total dps(as in personal combined with the dps gained by party from your utility).
We would then have a small percentage chance of a NIN/SMN/DRG/DNC party to form. That is in your own calculations, do mind. Then again there will again be put another variable called.. they have to be VERY GOOD so... thats another 1/100 chance x 4. But wait, for those buffs to still be better than a pure DPS you also need to account for the 2 tanks and the 2 healers to bring high DPS for their class too. so thats another... 1/100 chance per person to a total of.... 1/100 up'ed in 8. So... How much of a chance will there be for the utility classes to actually deal more damage than a personal DPS class if you tune every DPS up to the spot where the utility can compete with pure personal DPS? Hmm? The chances are astronomical.

So, thank you for proving my point and giving me more data to do this.

[Zerathor]

I did no such thing. I simply used your argument against me to your own train of thought, and instead of being adult about it you started to personally attack me.
If Utility classes got the treatment they should. and have the posibility to do a bit more total dps(as in personal combined with the dps gained by party from your utility).
We would then have a small percentage chance of a NIN/SMN/DRG/DNC party to form. That is in your own calculations, do mind. Then again there will again be put another variable called.. they have to be VERY GOOD so... thats another 1/100 chance x 4. But wait, for those buffs to still be better than a pure DPS you also need to account for the 2 tanks and the 2 healers to bring high DPS for their class too. so thats another... 1/100 chance per person to a total of.... 1/100 up'ed in 8. So... How much of a chance will there be for the utility classes to actually deal more damage than a personal DPS class if you tune every DPS up to the spot where the utility can compete with pure personal DPS? Hmm? The chances are astronomical.

So, thank you for proving my point and giving me more data to do this.

The primary difference is, my math is rooted in logic, and actual known values. Yours is... entirely speculation on what you want to believe as long as it will support your argument. If I'm wrong, show me where you get these exact values.

And again, we've already seen what happens when utility jobs provide more than a pure damage job, for a very... very... long time. Pure dps jobs become irrelevant. Utility jobs should get more use out of buffing a high personal damage job, not 4 utility jobs jerking eachother off. We don't need another stormblood, we don't need another last half of heavensward. Let the game progress. Sorry if that means you wont be a required job in every composition anymore, but that's how it should be.

[CrashofZenki]

Its basically played out like this: "I dont mind statics and PFs denying a job to be able to clear, as long as it doesnt mean my job gets denied for being Personal DPS only"
Your whole argument of balance will continue the eternal spiral of "Now this job is META" but next week its. oh! "This job is META" Instead of a "Doesnt matter what you bring, you can complete everything with the comp you have as long as you do the mechanics and deal sweet DPS and youll be able to progress at the same pace as every other combination at the same skill level."

[Wayfinder3]

The primary difference is, my math is rooted in logic, and actual known values. Yours is... entirely speculation on what you want to believe as long as it will support your argument. If I'm wrong, show me where you get these exact values.

And again, we've already seen what happens when utility jobs provide more than a pure damage job, for a very... very... long time. Pure dps jobs become irrelevant. Utility jobs should get more use out of buffing a high personal damage job, not 4 utility jobs jerking eachother off. We don't need another stormblood, we don't need another last half of heavensward. Let the game progress. Sorry if that means you wont be a required job in every composition anymore, but that's how it should be.

Just saying, Alphascape logs for speed killing are immortalized on FFlogs and clearly show a meta where a Pure Dps(BLM) and a Utility Dps(SMN) existed in equal measure and both are all over the Top 10 of those fights. in fact, even SAM was meta for at least 1 fight which at the very least is more than thats ever been said about the job lately. The point still stands though, your idea that if Utility dps are good, Pure dps will fall isn't true and, there is in fact a balance that can be established.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/25

[Zerathor]

Just saying, Alphascape logs for speed killing are immortalized on FFlogs and clearly show a meta where a Pure Dps(BLM) and a Utility Dps(SMN) existed in equal measure are both are all over the Top 10 of those fights. in fact, even SAM was meta for at least 1 fight which at the very least is more than thats ever been said about the job lately. The point still stands though, your idea that if Utility dps are good, PUre dps will fall isn't true and there is infact a balance that can be established.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings/25

And just saying, one of those jobs was desired for progging it, but still got to be high on damage for some reason despite the other one not being desired. All you show is that after a fight is done and everyone has cleared it, some jobs can do better. But for some reason, the jobs that made it easier to clear should also be in the speedrun meta.

[Wayfinder3]

And just saying, one of those jobs was desired for progging it, but still got to be high on damage for some reason despite the other one not being desired.

Do you think it's fair that BLM has 41% of Titan Savage kills compared to RDMs 20%? BLM SHOULD be an outcast for progression because by your logic, it's damage is all it has and damage shouldn't be the only factor that matters in progression. too bad rdm and smn dps is so comparatively lower that BLM has twice as many savage clears as the prog caster which is completely unfair. You don't want balance, you want to get even for the BLM problems of yesterday, now that you're on top. You're spreading fear at any chance of RDM and SMN getting their fair share while being willfully ignorant to the fact that RDM never even had a turn to be the "best one" and they've never asked for it.

[Zerathor]

Do you think it's fair that BLM has 41% of Titan Savage kills compared to RDMs 20%? BLM SHOULD be an outcast for progression because by your logic, it's damage is all it has and damage shouldn't be the only factor that matters in progression. too bad rdm and smn dps is so comparatively lower that BLM has twice as many savage clears as the prog caster which is completely unfair. You don't want balance, you want to get even for the BLM problems of yesterday, now that you're on top. You're spreading fear at any chance of RDM and SMN getting their fair share while being willfully ignorant to the fact that RDM never even had a turn to be the "best one" and they've never asked for it.

You're a fool if you think those blm's weren't on rdm/smn up until the group learned the enrage.

I'll put this in simple terms so that you might get it through your skull. You have 2 jobs to pick. Both will provide the same raid dps after all buffs are accounted for. Do you want the one that has a raise, or the one that does not have a raise? Do you want the one that makes your numbers look pretty, or the one that does not? Stop and think about it for more than 2 seconds, it might just come to you, i believe in you champ.

[Kabooa]

BLM SHOULD be an outcast for progression because by your logic, it's damage is all it has and damage shouldn't be the only factor that matters in progression.

Glad we're all not showing any of that bias. Only us evil Black mages, not wanting to be ostracized for progression.

EDIT: Whelp. I hit my post limit.

Really thought I had one more.

@Kejara. Rank by progress, look at 273. Week 1 clear was possible, they did it, and if you look through the data enough, you can see other groups with bottom 3 and 1 big3 where the big3 can be replaced by a Samurai or a tippity toppity lower 6 and clear.

@Wayfinder

Alright, I kind of get your position, but I have a question for you.

What about those of us -not- in the speedkilling community? I've joined one group for it back in Alte Roite, and while it was fun, it wasn't my thing. I primarily join party finder to A) Progress outside my static and B) help other people get their clears.

Why should my job inherently be weaker for what I want to do, especially when some of those people -really need- that advantage Black Mage can bring? If everyone gets bumped up in DPS, -then the DPS check is higher- in the next tier. You don't honestly think they'd keep it relatively the same despite giving 60% of the dps jobs an increase, do you?

[CrashofZenki]

1.4% chance.

a small percentage for a Personal DPS job to not get a party if it happens.