Can any team comp clear?

[Uliq]

Show me a 1 week E4S clear with NIN > RDM > DNC > and the last job not being MNK DRG BLM or SAM.

it wouldn't matter what the last job is that's a fail on the dps scale. you'll miss by atleast 6k at 100% for the whole party.

[Zerathor]

Show me a 1 week E4S clear with NIN > RDM > DNC > and the last job not being MNK DRG BLM or SAM.

Job strength aside, the raw statistical chance of that group forming is rather slim. That's a 2/105 chance if the party just randomly formed, out of all the 210 possible combinations of 4 unique dps in a party. 1.9%.

[CrashofZenki]

Job strength aside, the raw statistical chance of that group forming is rather slim. That's a 2/105 chance if the party just randomly formed, out of all the 210 possible combinations of 4 unique dps in a party. 1.9%.

So why do people battle so much against utility classes getting buffed to compete with the DPS of classes that doesnt?

[Zerathor]

So why do people battle so much against utility classes getting buffed to compete with the DPS of classes that doesnt?

Quality goal post moving there.

And because we already saw Utility Jobs: The Expansion™ and its sequel Utility Jobs 2: This Time Without Double Range Physical™.

[CrashofZenki]

Quality goal post moving there.

And with this, I proved my point. It has nothing to do with being left out of PFs or Statics. Its the fact that people wants the class they are on to do the most damage because they expect a personal DPS class to always go up on the top, without having to worry about a utility jobs potential to exceed them in rare cases if they are awesome. BOOM!

[Kejara]

Job strength aside, the raw statistical chance of that group forming is rather slim. That's a 2/105 chance if the party just randomly formed, out of all the 210 possible combinations of 4 unique dps in a party. 1.9%.

I think that is correct for a particular combination. However, I believe your math requires that jobs are allowed to repeat which means it allows for groups like NIN/NIN/NIN/NIN or DNC/DNC/DNC/DNC to form which just isn't realistic. A lot of PFs enforce no dupes for difficult content (Savage, EX, etc). So for calculating permutations you might want to say that a job cannot repeat once selected. If we do that I think the number of permutations becomes 35 and thus the odds become 1/35 for any particular, no repeat, randomly formed combination.

7! / 4!(7 – 4)! = 35.

[Zerathor]

I think that is correct for a particular combination. However, I believe your math requires that jobs are allowed to repeat which means it allows for groups like NIN/NIN/NIN/NIN or DNC/DNC/DNC/DNC to form which just isn't realistic. A lot of PFs enforce no dupes for difficult content (Savage, EX, etc). So for calculating permutations you might want to say that a job cannot repeat once selected. If we do that I think the number of permutations becomes 35 and thus the odds become 1/35 for any particular, randomly formed combination.

10 dps jobs, 4 total dps

10!/[4!(10-4)!]

This accounts for duplicates. 210 dps combinations of unique dps jobs

a small percentage for a Personal DPS job to not get a party if it happens.

not an argument.

[Kejara]

10 dps jobs, 4 total dps

10!/[4!(10-4)!]

This accounts for duplicates.

You're right. I counted in my head and somehow came up with 7.... I wonder whom I left out. Sorry.

[Vendalwind]

Job strength aside, the raw statistical chance of that group forming is rather slim. That's a 2/105 chance if the party just randomly formed, out of all the 210 possible combinations of 4 unique dps in a party. 1.9%.

Im really surprised you made it three more pages without someone battling this logic a little more.

You make it sound like because of this statistic we shouldn't expect to see this comp clear too frequently anyways via random composition. By that same exact measure then why in the Hells do we see BLM, DRG, MNK, MCH/BRD so bloody frequently then? flipping it on its head the fact that these two compositions are so overly common should be a pretty clear demonstration of the the fact that these classes are sitting on top of the balance, regardless of the balance of dps necessary for a raid.

I'm sorry but I have a really hard time reading all this and not getting a little incensed, but Zerathor you really do come across as a BLM supremacist.

"And because we already saw Utility Jobs: The Expansion™ and its sequel Utility Jobs 2: This Time Without Double Range Physical™." Stop looking for bloody reparation. Not only is this a gross satirical exaggeration of past events but it's you being a straight butt hurt snob about them. The state of the game in the past DOESNT EVEN FREAKING MATTER. if we want balance now we need to talk about balance with only current metrics and team comps in mind.

On the original subject. No way a 4 DNC party could ever clear, probably even not now Id guess unless some of them had E4 weapons. I doubt they'd even have made it past E2S

And if qualified with Unique Jobs and Standard comp AND week 1 clear.
I very much think a SAM, NIN, DNC, SMN/RDM comp would have struggled exceptionally hard to clear E4S if it was in fact even possible. I personally would have put that down as a challenge to pointlessly annoying to even attempt.

[Zerathor]

Im really surprised you made it three more pages without someone battling this logic a little more.

You make it sound like because of this statistic we shouldn't expect to see this comp clear too frequently anyways via random composition. By that same exact measure then why in the Hells do we see BLM, DRG, MNK, MCH/BRD so bloody frequently then? flipping it on its head the fact that these two compositions are so overly common should be a pretty clear demonstration of the the fact that these classes are sitting on top of the balance, regardless of the balance of dps necessary for a raid.

I'm sorry but I have a really hard time reading all this and not getting a little incensed, but Zerathor you really do come across as a BLM supremacist.

"And because we already saw Utility Jobs: The Expansion™ and its sequel Utility Jobs 2: This Time Without Double Range Physical™." Stop looking for bloody reparation. Not only is this a gross satirical exaggeration of past events but it's you being a straight butt hurt snob about them. The state of the game in the past DOESNT EVEN FREAKING MATTER. if we want balance now we need to talk about balance with only current metrics and team comps in mind.

On the original subject. No way a 4 DNC party could ever clear, probably even not now Id guess unless some of them had E4 weapons. I doubt they'd even have made it past E2S

And if qualified with Unique Jobs and Standard comp AND week 1 clear.
I very much think a SAM, NIN, DNC, SMN/RDM comp would have struggled exceptionally hard to clear E4S if it was in fact even possible. I personally would have put that down as a challenge to pointlessly annoying to even attempt.

I wouldn't say that specific comp you mentioned is frequent either. Its there, but certainly is not the norm. Unless you meant the jobs themselves being in groups individually. In which case I would argue that seeing drg, brd/mch isn't very surprising as they were already more than prevalent due to last expansion's meta requiring them in any type of party comp. Blm and smn are relatively close on their clear rates at the moment with smn having 10% less clears than blm. Monk is an extreme outlier, and I will agree a ton of people probably went monk due to their buffs alone, and not because they were just around waiting.

The only support job that I feel is really out of it by this metric is just ninja, and the others are just maybe a hair under what they should be, but not too far off the mark. Ninja however should get some kind of better buff to be more competitive.

Also it's not about complaining about the past. Its historical evidence of what happens when support jobs get to be as strong as you people want to make them. If i wanted to make it about complaining about the past, I'd bring up how none of you gave a damn then about any job that wasn't drg/nin/brd/smn struggling to get into a party, and told us to just switch jobs.