Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Wayfinder3]

Black mage has 20 +2.5 / proc seconds of movement per 60 seconds, +however much leylines / AM can net you.

Red mage has 38.5 seconds of movement per 60 seconds, plus 10.5 if melee combo lines up, plus 2.2 every Enchanted Reprise if literally nothing else can be used, plus stutter step dual casting if such can be done. For some reason corps and displacement don't have charges on them so the likelihood of being able to use these for clever movement are pretty small.

Bolded is emphasis on what the jobs both have without question. Everything else is a YMMV set up favoring Black Mage. Aether skating is pretty sweet.

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

[Kabooa]

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

I already edited.

Please note I'm not looking to dispute, I'm trying to provide some numbers for the peanut gallery.

[Zerathor]

If mobility makes a significant difference that is already accounted for in dps parses.
Counting mobility on top of parses is counting it twice, which you obviously should not do.
And you can set arbitrary value on having a raise, but going by anecdotal evidence in this thread (which you even implicitly agreed with) when balancing DPS the value of a raise is close to 0.

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.

38.5 seconds of movement means nothing when your job has 4 swiftcast a minute that isn't required to be used for direct DPS contribution. We can cherry pick dualcast in a vaccum but in execution it's not this ability that lets you run as a mad man. I could count the melee combo albeit i have to delay it for the mobility which is a DPS loss that BLM doesn't have to deal with because they can actually USE THEIR ABILITIES WHENEVER THEY WANT TO MOVE WITH NO LOSS, xenoglossy is a storeable dps Gain for them that is essentially equivalent to having 2 charges. So yeah, RDM is more mobile in a vaccum, too bad they have sacrifice so much for that claim to be true

If the bulk of blm rotation was a gcd/sub gcd cast time like rdm, I would slide cast across the arena without needing those tools. Which you can do without lining up cooldowns for long extended movement. Also xenoglossy lets us move with no downside, setting up triple, swift or sharp requires setting up a weave, and in sharp's case an additional cast to use that mobility, without clipping for a loss. Weaving ogcd's in general for blm generally require using our mobility tools to instead weave ogcds. Not saying blm isn't mobile now, it very much is. But in a vastly different sense compared to the other 2 casters.

[SaberMaxwell]

I already edited.

Please note I'm not looking to dispute, I'm trying to provide some numbers for the peanut gallery.

Fair enough, I have no big disagreements with your end assessment.

[CrashofZenki]

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Not having anything to contribute to the party other than your own personal DPS should come at a price. No worries of where to place utilities you dont have when and where.

[Wayfinder3]

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.



If the bulk of blm rotation was a gcd/sub gcd cast time like rdm, I would slide cast across the arena without needing those tools. Which you can do without lining up cooldowns for long extended movement. Also xeno glossylets us move with no downside, setting up triple, swift or sharp requires setting up a weave, and in sharp's case an additional cast to use that mobility, without clipping for a loss. Weaving ogcd's in general for blm generally require using our mobility tools to instead weave ogcds.

BLM has abilities with short cast times and longer recast times that with proper planning make space for this and even still, RDM is required to clip if they're casting prior to moving and swiftcast is only ogcd that can combat this where as you have at least 3

[Vendalwind]

This thread is no longer anywhere close to its original discussion. good stuff tho. I'd like to see more movement analysis between the casters done, cause that was a good little read that gave me some time to think. Caster is the one role I don't play so I have limited room to put input in other than talking about DPS disparity as seen in logs.

At the end of the day SE will decide where they want the balance line drawn, and we just have to hope they bring everything more in line when its drawn. Based on them saying they wanted to Buff samurai Im guessing the line is between SAM and DRG.

There has been a lot of throwing around of '___ was the meta back then' '___ was locked out of party finder back then' At the end of the day NO ONE should be looking for reparations because their class had a bad rep, OR forced non meta phases because xxxx class used to be on top. Speculating on the past literally brings no useful information to the table. Things are different now, and what needs to be brought in line should only be based on what a class is like in this moment, because otherwise you are using data that is literally pointless in argument or application, and usually covered in emotion.

IMO DPS for casters should be more similar regardless of how you view raise. However; raise could be kept as a utility, but perhaps the simplest solution could be to make it a forced hard cast. Swiftcast can't apply to it. If that were the case then casting raise would be a massive personal dps loss for the class that cast it. And that would also make healing and raising really only the healers jobs (as it should be imo) and make dps raises only valuable when trying to save a party cause both healers wiped. To make it more consistent, since raising a healer can amount to them being immediately flat-lined again, perhaps dps raises should also restore people to closer to full health at an even longer cast time. Thematically I also feel summoners at the very least should keep raise given their depictions in the games often enough as healers. RDM is a jack of all trades. Personally if I were to change RDM more and fleshed out I'd want to see them become more of a hybrid spellblade, lose raise and have more emphasis placed on a longer more dramatic melee phase. But I think that opinion is sadly contrary to what most people want for RDM.

These might be bad ideas, I get that Im shooting an idea into the group. But i think forced slow cast raises would help at the very least because then balancing could definitely be done without raise in mind, or at least with a much smaller dps tax given to raise casters.

[Fernosaur]

Never have I said raise is worth 0 dps. Thats just blatantly retarded to ever assume a form of utility shouldn't come at a price to have in your kit.

The price right now is way too high though. A Raise isn't worth 1.2k rDPS.


IMO, one of the biggest problems with how bad support jobs are right now in terms of player experience is how punishing it is to PuG on them at the moment. If you're playing BLM into PF, you can always carry so long as you do your job right. If you're playing NIN, RDM or DNC, you better hope that you get other three great DPS, cause a not insignificant chunk of your damage is so reliant on the rest of the party using your buffs properly. And even if you DO get great party members and you play perfectly, the rDPS is still lower than what you would've done on BML playing at an average level. The difference right now is insane and completely unfounded. Worse still, you get a "standard comp" party of only support jobs and in most cases it's "GG enrage wall" even before the pull has even started.



I've heard from top level RDMs themselves that they are really worried about the BLM weapon dropping on E4S, because then their groups would make them go BLM instead. RDM and SMN are in the same, or worse situation than BLM was in 4.0, and you will remember BLMs were very much not happy back then.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Snip

Another idea is limitations on the number of rezes in combat during an encounter. Wouldnt be the first time a game did that

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Assuming SE doesn't want to expand support kits to make them worth the gap, or get rid of them, the intended goal would seem to be following: rDPS of damage buffers should exceed selfish DPS, but only in a good party and only if they feed selfish DPS.

Crossing the gap on good/bad play would suggest the best way to do that is making the buffs stronger, but their multiplicative nature makes the math hard. Making buffers pDPS close to selfish pDPS with only small rDPS increases from buffs to close the gap is hard because then it's difficult to ensure the gap is only crossed if you feed a selfish (the only reason they're there).