I DON'T like Stormblood RDM

[Wayfinder3]

Raise alone? No. But this is a pattern of steps, and I'm keenly aware of it on my healers.

If you look at disparity of utility in ARR and HW, then StB, then now, there's a trend of boiling down skillsets within roles. In some cases, this has led to major disillusionment with the job (AST) or the job's core fantasy being put on life support despite being good at its trinity role (BRD). In BLM's case, it reduced them from the concept of "high DPS AND great crowd controller" to just the former, because the devs essentially abandoned non-interrupt CC as a game mechanic. It leaves less room as things get compressed. Again, BRD lost a lot of its support because they wanted to make room for DNC, rather than differentiating their support kits (or rather, they half did, but the unique things left to bard are, like BLM's old CC's and remnant Sleep, unsupported in 99% of content. When was the last time a serious fight had a cleansable status?).

If you define balance as "everything equal in all scenarios" then I supposed we have nothing more to say to one another. I vastly prefer the style of balance FF11 and many fighting games undertake, where balance is attained by letting diversity shine in different niches and scenarios. Going down the reductionist route of making everyone fit into the same holes with no individuality leads to Cata-WoW and similar monotone "balance." Soulless and constricting to encounter design and depth.

This isn't 11, this is 14 and your approach to balance seems to be "it's fine as long as it's different" too bad, that difference doesn't matter. As long as jobs feel different and engaging to play, look asthetically pleasing, and contribute well relative to each other. Then a good balance will be achieved. RDMs do deserve more healing abilities and i don't mind that but, unless they're ogcds like Assize, Indom, Whispering dawn, and any ability that is an OGCD. please don't waste our time with another situational GCD that good and dedicated players of the job that strive to be successful at it will avoid like the plague because healers will never ask you to use it over their own. This is why vercure goes unused aside from downtime. I can count on my Hands the amount of time, vercure saved a run because healers were preoccupied and tanks needed to live. it's not a lot

[Gaethan_Tessula]

This isn't 11, this is 14 and your approach to balance seems to be "it's fine as long as it's different" too bad, that difference doesn't matter. As long as jobs feel different and engaging to play, look asthetically pleasing, and contribute well relative to each other. Then a good balance will be achieved. RDMs do deserve more healing abilities and i don't mind that but, unless they're ogcds like Assize, Indom, Whispering dawn, and any ability that is an OGCD. please don't waste our time with another situational GCD that good and dedicated players of the job that strive to be successful at it will avoid like the plague because healers will never ask you to use it over their own. This is why vercure goes unused aside from downtime. I can count on my Hands the amount of time, vercure saved a run because healers were preoccupied and tanks needed to live. it's not a lot

My approach to balance is that it's actually easier to achieve, while maintaining fun, when you allow diversity. Trying to line up everyone's DPS is a game of whack-a-mole as jobs fall ahead and behind. As homogenization sets in, small differences make jobs completely superior, as there is no difference in niche to allow the lower DPS job a place. Making encounters that support different skill-sets and balancing the number of phases and/or encounters that favor given niches, on the other hand, ensures a place in the game for every job.

I know FF14 won't balance like that, and I mention in another post that different FF games need to adapt for genre, but 14 is going down a bad road by relying on compressing class design space down to role fundamentals. It hasn't hit the Cataclysm/Early EoC RS3 homogenization event horizon, yet, and I am trying to prevent that. StB BRD and NIN were a good example of adapting support skillsets into DPS jobs for a trinity game. If they could have given certain other jobs (RDM) something similar and then tuned the pure DD's (BLM/SAM) to a point of desirability, it would have been fine. Instead SE slashed support abilities from many jobs and roles, slashed diverse support from AST, slashed DPS from SCH, and slashed aggro management from every non-tank.

Gotta get all the pegs to fit precisely in their holes. But when most of the useful support abilities just increase rDPS, because the encounter design cares for little else, we shouldn't be surprised that pure DPS soar over or sink under "support" DPS based on whose rDPS is highest.

This wouldn't happen if a diverse array of support abilities occupied niches besides adding rDPS, and were actually supported by content (cleanable debuffs for BRD, the occasional thing that needs to be slept/bound/slowed, encounters that actually stress healers to the point that a) their full kits get used and b) defensive buffs/debuffs are more highly valued).

I envy people who can say a job "feels different to play" just based on rotation or aesthetic. That doesn't work for me, I need a difference in function. And I doubt I'm the only person who thinks that way.

RDMs do deserve more healing abilities and i don't mind that but, unless they're ogcds like Assize, Indom, Whispering dawn, and any ability that is an OGCD. please don't waste our time with another situational GCD that good and dedicated players of the job that strive to be successful at it will avoid like the plague because healers will never ask you to use it over their own. This is why vercure goes unused aside from downtime. I can count on my Hands the amount of time, vercure saved a run because healers were preoccupied and tanks needed to live. it's not a lot.

Well, good. Because I never proposed further GCD support or healing skills for RDM. I also think that such additions need to be oGCD's. If there's a place to experiment with GCD support skills, it's on the healers as an alternative to nukespam during downtime.

EDIT NOTE: Accidentally deleted post during editing, and had to rewrite most of it! That's why things may have looked... strange.

[Wayfinder3]

My approach to balance is that it's actually easier to achieve, while maintaining fun, when you allow diversity. Trying to line up everyone's DPS is a game of whack-a-mole as jobs fall ahead and behind. As homogenization sets in, small differences make jobs completely superior, as there is no difference in niche to allow the lower DPS job a place. Making encounters that support different skill-sets and balancing the number of phases and/or encounters that favor given niches, on the other hand, ensures a place in the game for every job.

I know FF14 won't balance like that, and I mention in another post that different FF games need to adapt for genre, but 14 is going down a bad road by relying on compressing class design space down to role fundamentals. It hasn't hit the Cataclysm/Early EoC RS3 homogenization event horizon, yet, and I am trying to prevent that. StB BRD and NIN were a good example of adapting support skillsets into DPS jobs for a trinity game. If they could have given certain other jobs (RDM) something similar and then tuned the pure DD's (BLM/SAM) to a point of desirability, it would have been fine. Instead SE slashed support abilities from many jobs and roles, slashed diverse support from AST, slashed DPS from SCH, and slashed aggro management from every non-tank.

Gotta get all the pegs to fit precisely in their holes. But when most of the useful support abilities just increase rDPS, because the encounter design cares for little else, we shouldn't be surprised that pure DPS soar over or sink under "support" DPS based on whose rDPS is highest.

This wouldn't happen if a diverse array of support abilities occupied niches besides adding rDPS, and were actually supported by content (cleanable debuffs for BRD, the occasional thing that needs to be slept/bound/slowed, encounters that actually stress healers to the point that a) their full kits get used and b) defensive buffs/debuffs are more highly valued).

I envy people who can say a job "feels different to play" just based on rotation or aesthetic. That doesn't work for me, I need a difference in function. And I doubt I'm the only person who thinks that way.

Well, good. Because I never proposed further GCD support or healing skills for RDM. I also think that such additions need to be oGCD's. If there's a place to experiment with GCD support skills, it's on the healers as an alternative to nukespam during downtime.

EDIT NOTE: Accidentally deleted post during editing, and had to rewrite most of it! That's why things may have looked... strange.

1. Needing a difference in function would imply some jobs could only do some content, taboo number one.

2. I don't like that SE slashed Aggro management for dps and MP assistance from ranged physical. But whether casters have an AoE bind or a Sleep means nothing no one because if they were required, they'd all need to have it, and judging by your attempt to job balance. you'd be perfectly ok if RDM and SMN couldn't do a fight because BLM is the only caster that has sleep simply because it's "different"

3. Different isn't better, Full homogeneity isn't the answer. In this type of game, there is a balance that needs to be landed to ensure all jobs can clear content and no disparities exist based solely upon the pursuit of being different.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

1. Needing a difference in function would imply some jobs could only do some content, taboo number one.

This statement is incorrect, because of two false assumptions.

First is that content can only have a singular solution involving specific functions. It's entirely possible to create encounters with an either/or solution (ex. CC these adds or face a brutal healing check), or encounters that are more variable in order and content of checks (something FF14 has not done much of, its fights are quite rigidly choreographed).

Second is assuming that acceptable difference in function must be in kind and not in degree. While I prefer difference in function, I acknowledge that doesn't work for a trinity MMO. Difference in degree, however, does. This is things like a hypothetical RDM that is a DPS with the best off-healer support, or PLD having the most off-tank party mitigation, or AST being the healer with the most rDPS buffs. FF14 already does this, the issue is that it seems to be continuously reducing the number of relevant and effective functions down to one expansion to expansion. That function is rDPS, plus oGCD heal bombs and mitigation skills for healers and tanks respectively.

Say SE makes a Savage or Ultimate fight, and man do they finally bring the healing uptime. It's not easy being green in this fight. Our hypothetical adjusted RDM is really good here, their 2-3 decent healing/defensive oGCD's do a lot of work in relieving healer burden, and they have Vercure/raise if things get super hairy (but hey, optimally they go unused), but they're still a DPS. As great a pick as they are for this fight, though, you don't NEED a RDM. Some combo of DNC, SUM, BRD, MNK, and/or PLD can bring enough combined healing support to give the healers a breath too. Some of those plus a RDM makes healing easier still, but there's more to the fight and compromises have to be made in the capabilities of the team composition somewhere (you might still want BLM/SAM/MCH for that tight enrage). Perhaps good enough healers don't need off-heal support at all at farm level. Or maybe the high-skill farm strategy uses 1 healer and as many DPS+tanks with off-heals as possible, but most PUG's and lesser statics can't do it?

But whether casters have an AoE bind or a Sleep means nothing no one because if they were required, they'd all need to have it, and judging by your attempt to job balance. you'd be perfectly ok if RDM and SMN couldn't do a fight because BLM is the only caster that has sleep simply because it's "different"

Untrue, because it isn't just casters with CC. The healers could repose, the ranged could bind, etc. Having a BLM to get it over with in one cast would be nice, but there's other solutions, and if the rest of the fight has phases poorly suited to BLM's strong points some groups may forgo using one.

The goal is for every job to be best at something in a way that makes it feel unique in spread of capability, not merely what buttons are pressed when for how much. That could mean being the best at its core role, or mean best of its role in bringing a specific type of hybrid utility.

Also, RDM and SUM both had AoE binds just last expansion, so all casters having some form of AoE CC is right up my desires. In that case, BLM's only advantage is shutting down the mobs entirely regardless of party positioning or if the mobs have ranged attacks, a far lesser imbalance than not being able to CC at all.

3. Different isn't better, Full homogeneity isn't the answer. In this type of game, there is a balance that needs to be landed to ensure all jobs can clear content

Sure, but (and you'll vehemently disagree with me here) I don't think a given job should be equally strong regardless of what composition they slot into. RDM needs to be able to clear any fight, sure, but I'd rather see a game where parties are built around attaining certain sum capabilities (and there's no fight that requires a SPECIFIC job) than one where you can insert your DPS into whatever DPS slot with whatever other jobs because every DPS job is completely interchangeable.

and no disparities exist based solely upon the pursuit of being different.

There is no such thing. I don't advocate this because I'm a hipster who loves things quirky and strange. I advocate it because playstyle diversity is a core aspect of fun in a game. It's what makes someone want to play BLM, RDM, and SUM rather than just "a caster DPS." Diverse toolkits also open up encounter design space. Ex. You can't include CC in a fight if no one has any worth using.

PS: A lot of this doesn't even come down to current or recent job design. It comes down to encounters designed to fully challenge only two things: party coordination in terms of positioning, and rDPS.

[Wayfinder3]

This statement is incorrect, because of two false assumptions.

First is that content can only have a singular solution involving specific functions. It's entirely possible to create encounters with an either/or solution (ex. CC these adds or face a brutal healing check), or encounters that are more variable in order and content of checks (something FF14 has not done much of, its fights are quite rigidly choreographed).
Second is assuming that acceptable difference in function must be in kind and not in degree. While I prefer different in function, I acknowledge that doesn't work for a trinity MMO. Difference in degree, however, does. This is things like a hypothetical RDM that is a DPS with the best off-healer support, or PLD having the most off-tank party mitigation, or AST being the healer with the most rDPS buffs. FF14 already does this, the issue is that it seems to continuously reducing the number of relevant and effective degrees down to one, rDPS, plus HPS and mitigation for healers and tanks respectively.

Say SE makes a Savage or Ultimate fight, and man do they finally bring the healing uptime. It's not easy being green in this fight. Our hypothetical adjusted RDM is really good here, their 2-3 decent healing/defensive oGCD's do a lot of work in relieving healer burden, and they have Vercure/raise if things get super hairy (but hey, optimally they go unused), but they're still a DPS. As great a pick as they are for this fight, though, you don't NEED a RDM. Some combo of DNC, SUM, BRD, MNK, and/or PLD can bring enough combined healing support to give the healers a breath too. Some of those plus a RDM makes healing easier still, but there's more to the fight and compromises have to be made in the capabilities of the team composition somewhere. Perhaps good enough healers don't need off-heal support at all at farm level. Or maybe the high-skill farm strategy uses 1 healer and as many DPS+tanks with off-heals as possible, but most PUG's and lesser statics can't do it?

Untrue, because it isn't just casters with CC. The healers could repose, the ranged could bind, etc. Having a BLM to get it over with in one cast would be nice, but there's other solutions, and if the rest of the fight has phases poorly suited to BLM's strong points some groups may forgo using one.

The goal is for every job to be best at something in a way that makes it feel unique in spread of capability, not merely what buttons are pressed when for how much. That could mean being the best at its core role, or mean best of its role in bringing a specific type of hybrid utility.

Also, RDM and SUM both had AoE binds just last expansion, so all casters having some form of AoE CC is right up my desires. In that case, BLM's only advantage is shutting down the mobs entirely regardless of party positioning or if the mobs have ranged attacks, a far lesser imbalance than not being able to CC at all.

Sure, but (and you'll vehemently disagree with me here) I don't think a given job should be equally strong regardless of what composition they slot into. RDM needs to be able to clear any fight, sure, but I'd rather see a game where parties are built around attaining certain sum capabilities (and there's no fight that requires a SPECIFIC combination of jobs) than one where you can insert your DPS into whatever DPS slot with whatever other jobs because every DPS job is completely interchangeable.

There is no such thing. I don't advocate this because I'm a hipster who loves things quirky and strange. I advocate it because playstyle diversity is a core aspect of fun in a game. It's what makes someone want to play BLM, RDM, and SUM rather than just "a caster DPS."

PS: A lot of this doesn't even come down to current or recent job design. It comes down to encounters designed to fully challenge only two things: party coordination in terms of positioning, and rDPS.

You seem to want to play a different game friend, im glad we're past the era of random CC on jobs and what your suggesting causes confusion the more jobs are added to the game.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

You seem to want to play a different game friend, im glad we're past the era of random CC on jobs and what your suggesting causes confusion the more jobs are added to the game.

Some of the things I valued about this game's diversity were present as recently as Stormblood. Some are still in the game technically (you can still play T7 on min ilvl and need to heavy/bind an add, for example). If that counts as another game, so be it. It's the direction the game is heading, consistently, that worries me. Because I've seen other games do similar things before, and it didn't end well.

I will indeed leave this game when it's blatantly nothing more than a DPS rat-race of shallow depth, but we aren't there quite yet. If I truly wanted to play a different game, I wouldn't be here spending this much time on a forum post. I still have FF11, for as much time as it has left, but I do like FF14 too.

As to more jobs being harder to balance, maybe if they can't make jobs that are both unique and balanced, they shouldn't keep making more jobs? Alas, it's easier to sell someone on something new than improving the old, even if the end quality of the latter turns out higher.

[Drayos]

Some of the things I valued about this game's diversity were present as recently as Stormblood. Some are still in the game technically (you can still play T7 on min ilvl and need to heavy/bind an add, for example). If that counts as another game, so be it. It's the direction the game is heading, consistently, that worries me. Because I've seen other games do similar things before, and it didn't end well.

I will indeed leave this game when it's blatantly nothing more than a DPS rat-race of shallow depth, but we aren't there quite yet. If I truly wanted to play a different game, I wouldn't be here spending this much time on a forum post. I still have FF11, for as much time as it has left, but I do like FF14 too.

As to more jobs being harder to balance, maybe if they can't make jobs that are both unique and balanced, they shouldn't keep making more jobs? Alas, it's easier to sell someone on something new than improving the old, even if the end quality of the latter turns out higher.

I think he means to spread CC across not to balance.

They’ve never rly had a issue with balance and get numbers sorted quickly. But I don’t think you could come up with unique CC for every job without duplicating so we’d become homogenised in CC and a over-abundance of CC is just as bad as a lack of CC.

[geekgirl101]

I'd be perfectly happy if they put a limit on how many verraises we can perform in a given time if it means we don't get taxed like hell for it. RDM dps right now is horrible, so horrible I've given up on it beyond anything other than soloing or doing hunts. It's not worth playing the job seriously anymore and it's very depressing for me but this is what SE wants.

[Drayos]

I'd be perfectly happy if they put a limit on how many verraises we can perform in a given time if it means we don't get taxed like hell for it. RDM dps right now is horrible, so horrible I've given up on it beyond anything other than soloing or doing hunts. It's not worth playing the job seriously anymore and it's very depressing for me but this is what SE wants.

Tbh given in SB our tax for it was 1100 and in this expansion it’s 2700, I’m not sure if we are intentionally this nerfed because of verraise or this was a oversight.

We could be just looking at awaiting 5.08 or 5.1 and while they haven’t said anything on RDM they didn’t mention anyone on buffs/nerfs only the jobs they feel they need to change gameplay wise.

[geekgirl101]

Then what other reason is RDM being so heavily hit, dualcast vercures? Make them not dualcastable then. I can't think of any other reasons why RDM is being taxed so heavily since we had a lot of utilities taken from us such as erase, mana-shift, apocatastasis, we're only left with 2 "white" abilities and we're still nerfed to oblivion in the DPS section. How BLMs are still jealous of us after we've lost so much baffles me, but I will be happy to have verraise either limited or removed altogether than see my job be thrown in the gutter as one of the worst caster DPS classes in the game whilst BLM gets all the attention. I'm struggling to hold back the tears because my most favourite job is dying out and has become worthless and SE doesn't seem to think it needs addressing and is turning a blind eye to it.

Personally I'm blaming a fair amount of this on how ShB raids are designed as well as how flawed the jobs are. They're hyper-tuned for expert players with barely any breathing space between using abilities and dodging mechanics, and as such means unless you're one of the top 4 DPS classes in the game you'll be the first one to blame if you don't beat the enrage and won't get accepted into the more difficult content. Some raid groups would be ok with taking RDM, NIN and SMN in their current state if it wasn't for the demand in needing to do x amount of DPS in x amount of time, so when raid groups fail to beat the enrage after a flawless run they're gonna turn to the RDM, NIN and SMN, blame them for being low DPS and replace them. I even see raid groups in PF with messages like "don't bring low DPS or kick" whilst only admitting BLM, MNK, DRG and SAM as DPS roles. This is exactly what SE said only a couple of years ago they were trying to avoid and why they would not add DPS parsers in the game. They have inadvertently created meta classes and discrimination against the more weaker classes.