I DON'T like Stormblood RDM

[Eloah]

Has nothing to do with meta, it's purely based on disparities and RDMs kit not interacting properly with the RNG nature of it's burst window, the lack of resource control and the over taxation of verraise. i didn't drop the term meta in my post once because thats not my goal here

I never said you or anyone "said" meta, I was just stating that a lot of it sounds like people are using the meta to want to make changes, not gameplay and fun.

[Duelle]

I never said you or anyone "said" meta, I was just stating that a lot of it sounds like people are using the meta to want to make changes, not gameplay and fun.

Fun and gameplay are great, but balance is also a thing. In fact, balance seems to be the reason some people here say "you can't buff RDM's DPS output because they have Verraise". And since the developers have also taken this stance (according to what has been mentioned in this thread), the ground rules for the discussion have already been decided.

The alternative would be to just sit there and accept that RDM should be treated this way because of utility, which goes counter to the point of DPS classes in a trinity MMO. Hell, even in non-trinity MMOs it can be a problem.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Verraise should stay, but only be a balancing footnote so long as DPS-checks for progression Savage are tuned to make 2+ deaths into an automatic failure.

RDM needs more White Magic, not less, but tinted with a DPS angle. Reflect/Wall for a raid defensive + counterattack, Ver-Assize for healing+damage and a way to do away with or force a change to lucid as a role action (thing is so sad on BLM), give an oGCD heal that's strong enough to turn one healer healing GCD into a DPS GCD per cooldown (bring erase back, but buffed?).

RDM could use appreciable auto-attacks. This places them closer to being melee (maybe a cooldown could be made to allow ranged autos for a little bit, as a mechanics mitigator). Zipping out of range remains an option for dodging or movement, but the default place for RDM is up close (frankly, there's no BENEFIT to being able to go in an out that SUM or BLM or any physical ranged doesn't already have).

RDM deserves to be the support-DPS of the caster branch, with a healing and defensive streak to match their lore and legacy in the FF series. They DO need to be ~12-15% below BLM DPS, because BLM offers absolutely nothing else (except AoE sleep lol). RDM's problem in my eyes isn't that it's a bad DPS, it's that its support function is wrongly focused on Raise and a GCD Cure that's only relevant for soloing or salvaging hopeless parties in content with no enrage.

[Eloah]

Verraise should stay, but only be a balancing footnote so long as DPS-checks for progression Savage are tuned to make 2+ deaths into an automatic failure.

RDM needs more White Magic, not less, but tinted with a DPS angle. Reflect/Wall for a raid defensive + counterattack, Ver-Assize for healing+damage and a way to do away with or force a change to lucid as a role action (thing is so sad on BLM), give an oGCD heal that's strong enough to turn one healer healing GCD into a DPS GCD per cooldown (bring erase back, but buffed?).

RDM could use appreciable auto-attacks. This places them closer to being melee (maybe a cooldown could be made to allow ranged autos for a little bit, as a mechanics mitigator). Zipping out of range remains an option for dodging or movement, but the default place for RDM is up close (frankly, there's no BENEFIT to being able to go in an out that SUM or BLM or any physical ranged doesn't already have).

RDM deserves to be the support-DPS of the caster branch, with a healing and defensive streak to match their lore and legacy in the FF series. They DO need to be ~12-15% below BLM DPS, because BLM offers absolutely nothing else (except AoE sleep lol). RDM's problem in my eyes isn't that it's a bad DPS, it's that its support function is wrongly focused on Raise and a GCD Cure that's only relevant for soloing or salvaging hopeless parties in content with no enrage.

Thanks for this, its sorta what I was trying to say, but couldnt because I kept having to pulled back into work. For the most part RDM does emulate the feel of a RDM quite well, but people are too focused on their lower DPS and Verraise, that's the Meta I mentioned. The focus needs to be on how they feel as a "caster" DPS since that is what they are classified as, and in that aspect some tweaks could be made so that they feel like they offer more support then just a raise. Verraise itself isn't the issue, people are making it the issue, which is why SE has their current stance.

[Zyneste]

Verraise should stay, but only be a balancing footnote so long as DPS-checks for progression Savage are tuned to make 2+ deaths into an automatic failure.

RDM needs more White Magic, not less, but tinted with a DPS angle. Reflect/Wall for a raid defensive + counterattack, Ver-Assize for healing+damage and a way to do away with or force a change to lucid as a role action (thing is so sad on BLM), give an oGCD heal that's strong enough to turn one healer healing GCD into a DPS GCD per cooldown (bring erase back, but buffed?).

RDM could use appreciable auto-attacks. This places them closer to being melee (maybe a cooldown could be made to allow ranged autos for a little bit, as a mechanics mitigator). Zipping out of range remains an option for dodging or movement, but the default place for RDM is up close (frankly, there's no BENEFIT to being able to go in an out that SUM or BLM or any physical ranged doesn't already have).

RDM deserves to be the support-DPS of the caster branch, with a healing and defensive streak to match their lore and legacy in the FF series. They DO need to be ~12-15% below BLM DPS, because BLM offers absolutely nothing else (except AoE sleep lol). RDM's problem in my eyes isn't that it's a bad DPS, it's that its support function is wrongly focused on Raise and a GCD Cure that's only relevant for soloing or salvaging hopeless parties in content with no enrage.

As much as I would love for rdm to become healer support as their job identity, it would not break the wheel of the current situation. Prog mage and farm mage.

I would however like to limit, but extend casters into that role of healer support with an ogcd role action raise and bringing back apocastasis [combine ranged bind and heavy together then give them back palisade too to contrast.] A buffed Erase can come back as a RDM skill, by moving Engagement down to level 40 at 100 potency, then buffed to 150 at 72 with displacement trait.

To me, all meaningful raid defensive tools should be shared amongst the role. Defense should be balanced separately from offense.

[Wayfinder3]

I never said you or anyone "said" meta, I was just stating that a lot of it sounds like people are using the meta to want to make changes, not gameplay and fun.

I'll explain the problem with verraise as a utility when compared to other jobs. AST is rewarded with RDPS for their raid, NIN is rewarded with rdps, every job's primary utility rewards the raid for good play with the exception of RDM and to a lesser extent, SMN as a portion of their kit is hindered but balanced around the idea of fixing the mistakes of others. This is NOT a reward, raising is inherently a dps negative ability as someone needs to die for it to be applicable. Thats the first problem as it's the ONLY raid utility that may or may not reach it's activation requirement. Should this happen, since healers have REZ, it would need to be more than just 1 or 2 isolated deaths for Verraise and SMN rez to be of actual value when compared to compositions without them. The problem lies with the fact that RDMs contribution is so low, that in early encounters, 2 deaths is likely the max to reach enrage without gear and in High level progression such as Turn 3 or 4, Death is flat out not acceptable if you mean to clear the encounter. Here is your fundamentally flawed issue with caster Rez and why it should be removed, it's because it's only limits SMN and RDMs potential as DPS and actively loses effectiveness later on while not fully mitigating the penalty of Death because that would be too strong.

Tl;dr:
1. Verraise is not truly quantifiable by the community and the developers
2. It is not a reward for RDM and SMN as it is inherently dps negative to the caster
3. It taxes their dps far too much without filling in the gaps of Utility needed for disparities not to exist actively making encounters more difficult early on, and the skills are pointless after awhile
4. It does nothing for a good party and begins to actively work against a RDM and SMNs performance
5. RDM shouldn't exist to clean up PF/DF memes, if you're wiping so much that they're needed, you're likely not clearing that run anyway

[Gaethan_Tessula]

That doesn't require Verraise to go away. It just requires SE to realize that one raise and minor rDPS buff alone does not a support kit make.

Not all utility is quantifiable in the same way. Class fantasy is also something to remember. As much as someone in this thread said they wanted Mystic Knight, RDM is not MKT. It's Red Mage, a fusion of black and white magic that can attack with magic and sword, heal, and support. RDM in FF14 would need several healing/supportive spells/abilities to hold onto that legacy if Verraise is dropped. Frankly, I think it should get them anyways in addition to retaining Verraise.

Again, this isn't an intrinsic problem with Verraise, it's the FF14 dev team's inability to balance things that aren't straight DPS numbers. And the trend of homogenizing to deal with it is going to burn them eventually. The more similar things get, the more you compress uniqueness and disparity of utility, the more little differences can make one job definitively superior to another.

[Wayfinder3]

If they decide to gift RDM with more utility and rewards beyond verraise, i'll gleefully take that. But so long as it's treated as the center point of our kit, will i continue to advocate for it's removal. RDM is a DPS first and foremost, removing Raise won't make the job homogenized with BLM. if that were true, every job thats not RDM and SMN would be BLM. There is a fine line to walk between homogenization and removing verraise doesn't inherently make the jobs the same. If your reason for keeping it is because it's different then what BLM has without actually considering what it does for RDM. then it sounds like you're here to promote job diversity rather than the Balance by which that diversity hinges.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

If they decide to gift RDM with more utility and rewards beyond verraise, i'll gleefully take that. But so long as it's treated as the center point of our kit, will i continue to advocate for it's removal. RDM is a DPS first and foremost, removing Raise won't make the job homogenized with BLM. if that were true, every job thats not RDM and SMN would be BLM. There is a fine line to walk between homogenization and removing verraise doesn't inherently make the jobs the same. If your reason for keeping it is because it's different then what BLM has without actually considering what it does for RDM. then it sounds like you're here to promote job diversity rather than the Balance by which that diversity hinges.

Raise alone? No. But this is a pattern of steps, and I'm keenly aware of it on my healers.

If you look at disparity of utility in ARR and HW, then StB, then now, there's a trend of boiling down skillsets within roles. In some cases, this has led to major disillusionment with the job (AST) or the job's core fantasy being put on life support despite being good at its trinity role (BRD). In BLM's case, it reduced them from the concept of "high DPS AND great crowd controller" to just the former, because the devs essentially abandoned non-interrupt CC as a game mechanic. It leaves less room as things get compressed. Again, BRD lost a lot of its support because they wanted to make room for DNC, rather than differentiating their support kits (or rather, they half did, but the unique things left to bard are, like BLM's old CC's and remnant Sleep, unsupported in 99% of content. When was the last time a serious fight had a cleansable status?).

If you define balance as "everything equal in all scenarios" then I supposed we have nothing more to say to one another. I vastly prefer the style of balance FF11 and many fighting games undertake, where balance is attained by letting diversity shine in different niches and scenarios. Going down the reductionist route of making everyone fit into the same holes with no individuality leads to Cata-WoW and similar monotone "balance." Soulless and constricting to encounter design and depth.

[kajv95]

Back then that was about a 13% difference.

If you look at RDPS differentials now, it's a 15% difference.

If you look at ADPS it's 21%, though this number differs from between 15-20% depending on the fight.

Wanting to close the gap to Stormblood levels without taking into account Shadowbringers inflation would reduce the actual RDPS value to around 5-6%, at which point, you might as well kick Black mage to the curb again, because that's about the difference there was in Delta.

Percentages are fun, but the reality is that health is not based around all these percentages alone, so this isn't a fair assumption. In a year's time, the current values will have a difference of 2k dps basically by default on any competent player, not just a top one.

Also fighting RDM on this when SMN was the culprit around that time, and not even because of raise is just silly. Embolden will not do what Contagion did. Remember that we were still working off of aDPS in logs as opposed to rDPS now, and people simply saw SMN as the better option because they were. And unlike SMN and RDM, BLM doesn't have that many options. This is why the gap has to be closed, but BLM should still remain ahead.