Reminder that war is still good.

[MerlinCross]

To be honest, Nascent Flash macro is the clunkiest thing to use in the universe. Super slow, unresponsive, just all bad

You're not wrong but I find trying to use it in the middle of a fight manually is also kinda clunky. And this is coming form a former DRK that often tried to throw out TBN on characters with damage taken up or low HP from a coming Raid hit. In part due to it possibly not being needed? Oh the 10% damage reduction for them is okay but most the time the healer(s) are also going to jump on that drop of HP as well. And if I need the HP? Well Equilibrium is still sitting there.

Personally I find the short duration to be really annoying to try and quickly work in what attack(s) I need for the HP as well and if I'm that low to need Feel Cleave HP, again the healer(s) are also probably jumping on me in which case I'm probably popping Thrill of Battle.

Now Nascent Flash seems to be just okay to niche for me. I'd rather just pop Raw Intuition but I don't do EX/Savage so maybe it sees better use there?

[Kouhai]

What makes it any clunkier than a Intervention/ Blackest Night/ heart of Stone/ Shirk macro?

Intervention isn't used often, same with shirk, 2 minutes is a pretty long cooldown and you usually do it every 3-5 minutes. Blackest night and heart of stone can be used on yourself. Nascent flash NEEDS another person for YOUR OWN mitigation, that's what makes it clunky. Not only that, but since it's a 25 second CD, you use it often and can fumble quite easily if you are unprepared.

You're not wrong but I find trying to use it in the middle of a fight manually is also kinda clunky. And this is coming form a former DRK that often tried to throw out TBN on characters with damage taken up or low HP from a coming Raid hit. In part due to it possibly not being needed? Oh the 10% damage reduction for them is okay but most the time the healer(s) are also going to jump on that drop of HP as well. And if I need the HP? Well Equilibrium is still sitting there.

Personally I find the short duration to be really annoying to try and quickly work in what attack(s) I need for the HP as well and if I'm that low to need Feel Cleave HP, again the healer(s) are also probably jumping on me in which case I'm probably popping Thrill of Battle.

Now Nascent Flash seems to be just okay to niche for me. I'd rather just pop Raw Intuition but I don't do EX/Savage so maybe it sees better use there?

You can easily prep a fell cleave or two for nascent flash and even if you get like: eye > upheaval > fell cleave > heavy swing, it will still heal much more than what raw intuition will mitigate from autos, even on E4S where Titan autos for around 30-31K.

[Saeno]

Intervention isn't used often, same with shirk, 2 minutes is a pretty long cooldown and you usually do it every 3-5 minutes. Blackest night and heart of stone can be used on yourself. Nascent flash NEEDS another person for YOUR OWN mitigation, that's what makes it clunky. Not only that, but since it's a 25 second CD, you use it often and can fumble quite easily if you are unprepared.

Intervention is used quite often as it is used whenever it is needed as with shirk. Im not sure where 3-5 minutes comes from. Blackest night and HoS of course can be used on self but it requires the same macro as nascent if you want to help the MT. If using Nascent for self mitigation is what you want, you always have Raw intuition as an option. Using Nascent for self healing through autos instead of mitigating damage is an optimization, not a necessity. There are rarely ever cases where you will die by using Raw instead of Nascent. In fact i'd argue in high end content, Raw is what will save you more often than Nascent.

I don't disagree with nascent being usable without a target, in fact I support it. What I don't agree with is the clunkiness of the macro because every single tank has to deal with . Just like how healers use macros to place benison and excog on tanks. If you're OTing you still have to help your MT by giving him mitigation and using that macro just like any other tank.

[IntrovertAnt]

Intervention isn't use very often...

I use intervention alot in boss fights. If I'm OT, I'll burn a tank CD and give it to my MT. With double tanks Busters it's a perfect time to use it IE Titania Ex, E1S, E2S, etc.
I don't think there is a boss fight where I'm not using intervention at least 3+ times a fight and even more for some.

To make intervention less clunky, I use the mouse over macro and it works really well. For consistency I mouse over their name on the party list, but in an "oh shit the MT is going to die next hit" moments I can just mouse over their character in a pinch (and this can be done with cover and clemency as well).

[Xariann]

I still love WAR and main it, and I get a lot of comments on how I am easy to heal, because I think it's fantastic defensively.

My main gripe is that, while we don't have a threat combo to worry about now, a couple of things that should have been changed to bring it in line with the other tanks have been left untouched.

Overpower and Storm's Eye being at the end of a three-move combo are my main gripes.

Nascent Flash needing someone else to be alive or targeted is also annoying, but it's my go-to CD for AOE and I don't think any other tanks has such a strong AOE tanking CD.

[Azrael-XIII]

I still love WAR and main it, and I get a lot of comments on how I am easy to heal, because I think it's fantastic defensively.

My main gripe is that, while we don't have a threat combo to worry about now, a couple of things that should have been changed to bring it in line with the other tanks have been left untouched.

Overpower and Storm's Eye being at the end of a three-move combo are my main gripes.

I agree, I think storms eye needs a bit of a QoL change to bring it a little more in line with the other tanks’ damage buffs. I’d say either have it’s dura cap at 60 seconds instead of 30 (like Darkside for DRK) and/or allow it to combo off heavy swing instead of maim so it’s only a two hit combo. It’d be nice if mythril tempest also *applied* it instead of just extended it, it’s irritating always having to start a large trash pull with a single target combo instead of just immediately going into aoe combo like every other tank (DRK gets Edge AND Flood for this very reason)

I also just wish the target requirements for overpower was removed (but still would be directed at enemy if targeted), it’s just another mechanic that, while not terrible, just feels clunkier to use than the other 3 tanks versions atm

[VenKitsune]

War's utility is DPS. The reason why you would bring a war was because of more dps. Now there's no reason to bring a war if it doesn't have it's utility. You'd bring a war in HW because it was a dps loss for the nin to put up slashing. In SB it was a dps loss to not bring a slashing person in general and mnk/drg was really good, so you would bring a war. Now war has the least party utility, the tie for least damage, and it's self mitigation isn't even that great compared to other classes. It's invuln is really it's only benefit at the moment. This is why people want warrior to be top dps because if you bring a war, you want more dps.

Im sorry but thats not true, not anymore. in ARR PLD was actually the highest dps tank - you brought WAR as the MT because of inner beast, a quick to generate 20% damage reduction you could used on tank busters like Death sentence. It's only in HW and SB that it was the "damage tank", now with the introduction of GNB, WAR has gone back to its original identity of quick dirty cooldowns for each tank buster that have no cost. Sheltron? Need gague. TBN? Needs MP. Heart of stone? Kinda weak, technically better put on someone else due to Brutal shell transferance. Raw intuition? Only a 25 second cooldown rampart. A 25 SECOND COOLDOWN RAMPART.

WAR has some of the best personal mitigation in the game right now, not to mention vengeance hitting the enemy back. WAR's defensive abilities justify its lower damage, all thats changed is its idenity, this isnt a matter of balance.
Infact, i'd argue it wasnt ever a "damage tank" but rather a "selfish tank", which has been maintained with narcean flash being the weakest of all of the single target co-tank cooldowns, and sharing a cooldown with raw intuition.

With that in mind there are two "archetypes" of tanks right now - PLD/WAR are the utility and party support tanks by offering tools for that such as veil of passage or by just doing their job really well, and GNB/DRK are the single target buffers - HOS/TBN being excellent co-tank tools, both with only a single way to support the party in the form of a magic damage down, not general damage. And before you argue most aoe's are magical anyway, thats not quite the case anymore, ShB added in plenty of Physical aoe's, even in savage, making Shake/Veil much more desirable.

if WAR gets any kind of damage buff, it might be justifiable to argue for like maybe an extra 10 potency on fell cleave or its path combo. Nothing more.

DRK on the other hand, definately needs some damage buffs. Much like in SB, TBN is the only thing keeping it relevant right now. For once in its life WAR is actually balanced - its the other tanks that need minor tweaks, WAR is perfectly fine where its sitting right now.

[Saeno]

Im sorry but thats not true, not anymore. in ARR PLD was actually the highest dps tank - you brought WAR as the MT because of inner beast, a quick to generate 20% damage reduction you could used on tank busters like Death sentence. It's only in HW and SB that it was the "damage tank", now with the introduction of GNB, WAR has gone back to its original identity of quick dirty cooldowns for each tank buster that have no cost. Sheltron? Need gague. TBN? Needs MP. Heart of stone? Kinda weak, technically better put on someone else due to Brutal shell transferance. Raw intuition? Only a 25 second cooldown rampart. A 25 SECOND COOLDOWN RAMPART.

I understand this isn't entirely related to the topic but WAR was OT for ARR in most if not all groups because competing for aggro against a PLD that only spammed Rage of Halone was annoying. In some fights like T8 people used WAR MT but then it was discovered you could just solo tank all of second coil with a PLD.

WAR imo was a damn good tank for t13 but at the point of final coil, so many people were so dead set on PLD MT that WAR's never really MT'd for that fight. There was also still the issue of competing for aggro when you want your WAR to just spam path and eye on Bahamut, meaning little BB combos.

Also, I believe Raw intuition is good but it's on par with all of the other tank CD's except HoS. Sheltron lasts longer than Raw and has a shorter recast while also having the flexibility of being used in different areas. You also get 50 gauge every 22.4 seconds meaning it has a shorter theoretical recast than Raw. TBN has a 3k MP cost but any good DRK stays above 3k MP regardless. TBN is also much stronger than all other tank short CDs. I think what makes WAR excel is how universal Thrill is and how good Equilibrium is. No other tank can do what Equilibrium does unless you want to sacrifice DPS on Clemency.

[whiskeybravo]

Yea honestly I'm really enjoying being able to use Equilibrium more freely. I don't really like what they did with Thrill, CD reduction is nice but getting a lv78 trait for an effect we had access to since ARR just rubs me the wrong way. Really lazy on SE's part.

[VenKitsune]

I understand this isn't entirely related to the topic but WAR was OT for ARR in most if not all groups because competing for aggro against a PLD that only spammed Rage of Halone was annoying. In some fights like T8 people used WAR MT but then it was discovered you could just solo tank all of second coil with a PLD.

WAR imo was a damn good tank for t13 but at the point of final coil, so many people were so dead set on PLD MT that WAR's never really MT'd for that fight. There was also still the issue of competing for aggro when you want your WAR to just spam path and eye on Bahamut, meaning little BB combos.

Huh? What dimension were you playing in? In hardcore groups PLD was almost always OT - Sword oath made PLD top dps tank, and back then magic attacks couldn't be blocked or parried. WAR was almost always MT. Im not sure why you're making mention of agro concerns - PLD in an OT role used Sword oath, not shield oath. Agro was not a concern, if it was then the WAR was bad. Back then Path had no benefits other than the heal, so it was Eye in to BB, path was rarely touched and only used as OT while defiance was on, allowing for wrath accumulation and reducing agro concerns.

Also, I believe Raw intuition is good but it's on par with all of the other tank CD's except HoS. Sheltron lasts longer than Raw and has a shorter recast while also having the flexibility of being used in different areas. You also get 50 gauge every 22.4 seconds meaning it has a shorter theoretical recast than Raw. TBN has a 3k MP cost but any good DRK stays above 3k MP regardless. TBN is also much stronger than all other tank short CDs. I think what makes WAR excel is how universal Thrill is and how good Equilibrium is. No other tank can do what Equilibrium does unless you want to sacrifice DPS on Clemency.

I'd argue that RI is one of the best - Sure, TBN is the best but it can be put on other players, it isnt limited to the caster like RI, and so that comparison only works in a vacuum. RI can literally be used on cooldown to make WAR the tank that takes the less damage overall through the whole fight - affording healers more time to do damage. Rampart and Vengence can be used on tank busters, and TBN, HOS, Intervention can all be cast by the other tank on a WAR MT. Sure, Thrill is nice, but i dont agree with "no other tank can do what equilibirum does" - It has the same potency as Aurora. Also, both Celemency and aurora can be cast on other people, equilibirum can not.

All the facts point to the effect that SE WANTS WAR to be the defacto "Main tank", all its cooldowns are selfish and plentiful, and the only tank that has a healing received increase.