Reminder that war is still good.

[Kouhai]

So after clearing E4S week 2, had some issues week one and couldn't raid as much as we would have liked, I can give you my consensus on Warrior so far.

It's still bad on dps. I've been doing everything I can, 470 chest and gloves, optimizing where I can, getting what damage in where I can to maximize my potential, and the GNB can still beat me in dps. You would think maybe that war has better personal mitigation? Well with raw int being on such a low cd and sharing with a better CD, nascent flash, I very rarely use raw int except on busters when I have no other cd to pop, which happens a couple times a fight. I literally RELY on my own self healing to help balance the mitigation I don't have. Thrill being only a 10 second duration means healers can't really take advantage of it if they need to as it lasts so short, you have to pop it when the buster is happening and wait for them to heal afterwards. Raw int is very rarely used because nascent flash helps so much more for autos, but the issue with it is that IT"S SO CLUNKY TO USE. Being in the heat of battle, pressing a party member and nascent flash in between GCDs is a pain in the rear. I made a short document last week describing my cooldown rotation for the healers so they understand how useless raw is in practice except for very, very, specific scenarios. Personally, if thrill is going to last 10 seconds, it should be a 60 second cd. Healers don't spam cure on you, in fact most healing for tank busters are done well before thrill comes up. Equilibrium is better now at least because it's buffed by thrill, so it's useful for the heal after a buster. Shake is no where near as good as the party mitigation that the other 3 bring because it can block multiple hits. Shake has the same shield, every time. It's only good for one hit and buying time for healers to heal. Heart of Light is so much more useful than shake in places that more than 1 raid wide happens in 15 seconds and it happens quite often in savage.

Personally, war needs a buff. Maybe make shake a 5% damage reduction with the shield so it's as good as the other classes? The only thing going for it is that it can be used in a bind. Raw intuition needs to last longer so it can cover 3 autos so it can see more usage or make nascent flash and raw int not share a cd. Nascent flash should not need a party member to be used, that's the only skill from all tanks that NEED another party member to be used. Why is that? Inner chaos shouldn't be a dps loss under inner release as that's caused some times where I either delay inner release and disalign everything for inner chaos, or cap myself on stacks during my inner release combo.

TL;DR War is still good, but it's super clunky and is weak against other tanks in terms of mitigation and has to rely on self heals to be able to keep themselves up at times.

[jmoak]

If your running out of cooldowns on warrior, i dont know how your ever going to raid with paladin lmao. You may know warrior well, but problem is you don't understand how other tanks work and their weaknesses.

Also just make a macro for nascent flash...thats just common sense.

[Kouhai]

If your running out of cooldowns on warrior, i dont know how your ever going to raid with paladin lmao. You may know warrior well, but problem is you don't understand how other tanks work and their weaknesses.

Also just make a macro for nascent flash...thats just common sense.

1. I don't have paladin leveled
2. The cooldown rotation for the first minute of Titan Savage is vengeance for the buster for damage and mitigate the first hit, holmgang the last two, rampart right before the spread icons hit to mitigate it and the autos, thrill of battle + equi before geo crush so healers can dps more, lastly if he does car first, raw intuition the charge or else you'll potentially take fatal damage, tank swap after he goes back to normal because I've now run out of CDs.

I do understand how the other tanks work and their weaknesses, it's just that war has the most weaknesses there. PLD can't heal on their GCDs like the other can, but can burst heal themselves in dire situations, rescuecat also buffs that heal. DRK running out of MP for whatever reason means they lose their TBN and it could turn fatal, GNB doesn't have any burst self heal, Aurora is a HoT and brutal shell + the gcd heal isn't that much. Warrior's weakness is that it lacks mitigation so it has to rely on self healing. You have more self healing skills than mitigation skills. Healing: Path, Thrill, Equi, Nascent Flash. Mitigation: Rampart, Vengeance, raw. As I've said before, to keep up with other tanks in terms of auto mitigation and other stuff, you need to spam nascent flash, and I can't macro it because I need to potentially heal and mitigate any of the 7 others alive. Doing so has saved many people. Raw intuition is used mostly exclusively for shake and mitigating a buster that you have no other CDs for. If you would like to view my E4S war PoV, you can see my clear here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiAkOdQbiWk I started it late because I was dumb. Basically you can see my cooldown usage and the fact that I have to continuously swap with the other tank so we have our CDs up, as you should because running out of CDs is NORMAL. Besides, looking at PLD, it looks easier to raid with personally, just not my style.

[MerlinCross]

If your running out of cooldowns on warrior, i dont know how your ever going to raid with paladin lmao. You may know warrior well, but problem is you don't understand how other tanks work and their weaknesses.

Also just make a macro for nascent flash...thats just common sense.

The ability to make a macro shouldn’t save Nascent Flash from being called out as clunky.

[Saeno]

So after clearing E4S week 2, had some issues week one and couldn't raid as much as we would have liked, I can give you my consensus on Warrior so far.

It's still bad on dps. I've been doing everything I can, 470 chest and gloves, optimizing where I can, getting what damage in where I can to maximize my potential, and the GNB can still beat me in dps. You would think maybe that war has better personal mitigation? Well with raw int being on such a low cd and sharing with a better CD, nascent flash, I very rarely use raw int except on busters when I have no other cd to pop, which happens a couple times a fight. I literally RELY on my own self healing to help balance the mitigation I don't have. Thrill being only a 10 second duration means healers can't really take advantage of it if they need to as it lasts so short, you have to pop it when the buster is happening and wait for them to heal afterwards. Raw int is very rarely used because nascent flash helps so much more for autos, but the issue with it is that IT"S SO CLUNKY TO USE. Being in the heat of battle, pressing a party member and nascent flash in between GCDs is a pain in the rear. I made a short document last week describing my cooldown rotation for the healers so they understand how useless raw is in practice except for very, very, specific scenarios. Personally, if thrill is going to last 10 seconds, it should be a 60 second cd. Healers don't spam cure on you, in fact most healing for tank busters are done well before thrill comes up. Equilibrium is better now at least because it's buffed by thrill, so it's useful for the heal after a buster. Shake is no where near as good as the party mitigation that the other 3 bring because it can block multiple hits. Shake has the same shield, every time. It's only good for one hit and buying time for healers to heal. Heart of Light is so much more useful than shake in places that more than 1 raid wide happens in 15 seconds and it happens quite often in savage.

So I couldn't look at your co-tank's gear on lodestone but I took a glance at yours. I noticed you both are doing comparable numbers on FFLogs and that you also don't have crafted gear that is pentamelded. I will say that the lack of pentamelded crafted gear is going to cause you to do considerably less damage than any other tank in the game. My tank alt with little crafted is around 3k crit but only 900 Direct hit. My main is at 2500 crit and 2500 DH. My main has about a 35% DH rate in raids which allows me to do a lot of DPS even when I get screwed in Titan Maximum with the blue triangle. I think its fine that your co-tank should be doing more than you, even by a small amount, because he is playing the tank with the highest personal DPS in the game. Even then, you're still very close to them on damage, so much so that I dont think it's that relevant.

As for the personal mitigation on WAR and Thrill, self healing and Holmgang, I do believe WAR holds a considerable advantage over the other tanks still in the mitigation department but not so much in Titan Savage. It's true that Holmgang is not great for Stonecrusher or the final Stonecrusher where the small Titan will do Stonecrusher into Megalith, which Holmgang obviously does not excel at due to its duration. I don't think this is a big issue because in the past Holmgang was proven to be all that was needed. Only recently was holmgang not good enough and that's only for one of the 4 savage fights. And on the contrary, Hallowed has typically only been used once in harder fights but in Titan Hallowed is supreme because its longer duration advantage is realized in Titan Savage. I think the trade off is fair because a short recast tank invul has served WAR well for a very long time. It had to be nerfed because of how good it was. Sometimes certain tank invuls are better than the others but Holmgang has usually came out ahead for how useful it is to have a tank invul on a short recast.

For Thrill, I think this move is perfectly fine because compared to what the other tanks have, Thrill is the best overall. It's true that you need to be healed for Thrill to provide as much eHP as other tank CDs but I do believe healers will provide some amount of healing between those 10s especially if it's after high tank damage. Equilibrium really makes Thrill worth it since Thrill can be used during Thrill to provide a stronger heal. Nascent flash being better than Raw is true for auto attacks but realistically auto attack mitigation can be dealt with in more ways than just Raw. For example, because of how good Thrill is, you can place Rampart on auto attacks, like pre Quietus Voidwalker, and still have a ridiculous amount of CD's on standby. I think WAR's strongest suite is their defensives and they shouldn't receive a buff in this area.

As for HoL and Dark missionary, I agree these moves are a bit unfairly powerful compared to Shake it off and Divine Veil + passage. Often times, HoL and Missionary will cover two different types of damage where the PLD/WAR shields will always only cover one. Passage can only be used once every 2 minutes which means in situations where a PLD wants to be competitive with HoL, they need to use BOTH of their aoe mitigators in order to compete, and that's just silly if you ask me. I'd like to read about SE's stance on tank raid shields. Shake it off at the moment is fine as is, as is PLD's aoe mitigation despite how clunky veil is and passage. I think HoL and Missionary are just a tad bit too strong.

Personally, war needs a buff. Maybe make shake a 5% damage reduction with the shield so it's as good as the other classes? The only thing going for it is that it can be used in a bind. Raw intuition needs to last longer so it can cover 3 autos so it can see more usage or make nascent flash and raw int not share a cd. Nascent flash should not need a party member to be used, that's the only skill from all tanks that NEED another party member to be used. Why is that? Inner chaos shouldn't be a dps loss under inner release as that's caused some times where I either delay inner release and disalign everything for inner chaos, or cap myself on stacks during my inner release combo.

TL;DR War is still good, but it's super clunky and is weak against other tanks in terms of mitigation and has to rely on self heals to be able to keep themselves up at times.

I think if WAR were to be buffed, it definitely needs QoL over raw potencies. They need a longer duration storms eye for sure. Raw should be 6s for sure. Nascent definately should work like Dragon tether from DRG in that it does not need a target. Inner release with Inner chaos is weird but honestly I wanted Inner release changed since SB. The current design is horrible for the long term for WAR as they cannot take advantage of Chain, Litanty, Battle voice etc.

WAR right now walks a very fine line. If you buff its damage, then it is the tank with the best self sustain while also being one of the strongest tanks offensively. That would make it similar to SB WAR where it was pretty much always taken. If you make its raid utility better then it is a tank with respectable DPS but great utility and personal mitigation, which to me means they are just a better PLD. That means you take WAR as your MT and take a GNB or DRK as OT but you never bring the PLD. Buff its personal mitigation and you make it stronger in an area that is is already very strong in, which just makes it always MT. This doesn't actually help WAR since it still has some clunk.

[Lyth]

Think you have that backwards Saeno. HoL/DM only work on magic damage, while Shake/Veil work on both types. I do think that Veil does need to be looked at again, though, especially when you compare it to Shake.

[Kouhai]

The only types of raid wide damage are magic, very very very very rarely is it ever anything put. I think maybe like A9S, refurbisher, his double fist spin thing does physical, but it should be avoided so I don't think that counts. Maybe when everyone gets a marker and rocks fall on people or something? I can't think of one that does physical. It being magic just means it can't be used to cheese half of the tank busters in the game or mitigate half of the autos as a personal cooldown.

[Nedkel]

The ability to make a macro shouldn’t save Nascent Flash from being called out as clunky.

To be honest, Nascent Flash macro is the clunkiest thing to use in the universe. Super slow, unresponsive, just all bad

[Saeno]

Think you have that backwards Saeno. HoL/DM only work on magic damage, while Shake/Veil work on both types. I do think that Veil does need to be looked at again, though, especially when you compare it to Shake.

Good thing the vast majority of raidwide damage is magic. There is more darkness/true aoe damage than there is physical. There are some points where HoL/Missionary has dual functionality in that it serves as both a tank cooldown and a raid mitigation tool.

For example: E2S



You can use the DRK or GNB aoe tools to cover the shadowflame on both tanks and also have it up for Entropy. This is an absurdly good scenario for these skills since it completely capitalizes on the effect of mitigating damage for a duration instead of providing an overall bubble for a single instance of damage.

Then look at Titan Savage. You can use these skills to cover Earthen Fury + Tumults because of their durations.



Heart of Light before Shadowbringers launch actually mitigated all damage. It was changed to be magic only after the media tour. And thank goodness for that. Divine Veil and Shake have the advantage of darkness/true damage like in dimensional gate/ Eden's Gravity in E1S but Heart of Light/ Missionary are useles on darkness damage. I find it better to use these moves on the Prey that applies the bleeding debuff, so it mitigates both the damage and the DoT received.



Credit's to Xenosys Vex's tooltips on his channel.

[Saeno]

To be honest, Nascent Flash macro is the clunkiest thing to use in the universe. Super slow, unresponsive, just all bad

What makes it any clunkier than a Intervention/ Blackest Night/ heart of Stone/ Shirk macro?