Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Vallhallix]

So basically you're suggesting all the DPS roles should be the same?? No thanks. My BLM has basically one thing going for it, and that's the amount of damage it can deal. Why should BLM deal the same amount of damage that other DPS roles deal who also have buffs, debuffs, heals, rez options, etc.?

This somewhat, if I wanted to be a BLM i'd play BLM, some people want them to take away the very reason a lot of people like the other casters and ranged classes. Diversity and utility, SMN and RDM have been viable before, and both of them had raises during that time. So it's no reason they cannot buff them slightly without removal of raise, especially if "raise is as irrelevant" as people make it out. BLM is high end DPS for endgame, but that still hasen't stopped me from seeing nothing but Red Mages in just about every duty, and that is largely because people enjoy the way it plays. They love being able to self save themselves with a dualcast cure, they love being able to save a party. Want to take away something really useless from SMN? leave raise, take useless Physick and remove Titan. The fact that people want raise removed before COMPLETELY useless and unused skills SMN has is ridiculous.

[Eliadil]

This somewhat, if I wanted to be a BLM i'd play BLM, some people want them to take away the very reason a lot of people like the other casters and ranged classes. Diversity and utility, SMN and RDM have been viable before, and both of them had raises during that time. So it's no reason they cannot buff them slightly without removal of raise, especially if "raise is as irrelevant" as people make it out. BLM is high end DPS for endgame, but that still hasen't stopped me from seeing nothing but Red Mages in just about every duty, and that is largely because people enjoy the way it plays. They love being able to self save themselves with a dualcast cure, they love being able to save a party. Want to take away something really useless from SMN? leave raise, take useless Physick and remove Titan. The fact that people want raise removed before COMPLETELY useless and unused skills SMN has is ridiculous.

I do agree with you on every point, and I find it pretty amusing that most jobs want to get rid of their most important utility "because it isn't usefull and damage is just better". Sounds an awfull lot like some peoples want to play Samurai or Black Mage but with a spear, daggers or a book...

[Kejara]

I do agree with you on every point, and I find it pretty amusing that most jobs want to get rid of their most important utility "because it isn't usefull and damage is just better". Sounds an awfull lot like some peoples want to play Samurai or Black Mage but with a spear, daggers or a book...

People want to be viable in end game content and not feel like they are holding their teams back. There is already discrimination going on in PF because numbers matter. Some people are willing to give up their utility to avoid this discrimination and up their contribution. It is NOT the fault of those who play the jobs with utility but rather the fault of the encounter design team. Lower DPS jobs have no place in DPS race encounters. Period. It's just mathematics. I play RDM and I don't give a crap about verraise. Some people may like it and that's fine. As far as I'm concerned it can fall into the abyss never to return and I wouldn't care. Vercure can join it. It's the rest of the RDMs kit that I enjoy. However, I cannot speak for everybody.

In current encounter design, there is NO place for support/hybrids. Healers are competing for DPS. Tanks are competing for DPS. DPS are competing for, you guessed it, DPS. SE has made the end game meta evolve into one giant DPS competition for ALL roles. FF logs furthers the cause. Either SE needs to address encounter design to include a proper role for supports/hybrids or start thinking of removing the notion entirely.

And in all honesty, it sounds more like you're trying to preserve your job's position at the upper end of the DPS hierarchy rather than address the fundamental flaw that exists for DPS jobs that appear in the much lower portion of the hierarchy.

[Zerathor]

People want to be viable in end game content and not feel like they are holding their teams back. There is already discrimination going on in PF because numbers matter. Some people are willing to give up their utility to avoid this discrimination and up their contribution. It is NOT the fault of those who play the jobs with utility but rather the fault of the encounter design team. Lower DPS jobs have no place in DPS race encounters. Period. It's just mathematics. I play RDM and I don't give a crap about verraise. Some people may like it and that's fine. As far as I'm concerned it can fall into the abyss never to return and I wouldn't care. Vercure can join it. It's the rest of the RDMs kit that I enjoy. However, I cannot speak for everybody.

In current encounter design, there is NO place for support/hybrids. Healers are competing for DPS. Tanks are competing for DPS. DPS are competing for, you guessed it, DPS. SE has made the end game meta evolve into one giant DPS competition for ALL roles. FF logs furthers the cause. Either SE needs to address encounter design to include a proper role for supports/hybrids or start thinking of removing the notion entirely.

And in all honesty, it sounds more like you're trying to preserve your job's position at the upper end of the DPS hierarchy rather than address the fundamental flaw that exists for DPS jobs that appear in the much lower portion of the hierarchy.

To be fair, rdm without raises and cure is just a black mage that has ver infront of all their spells flavor wise, isn't exactly a "red mage" anymore at that point. Also the ratios between what a red mage does compared to a blm isn't that far off from how it was in alphascape, the average dps values have just increased by 2x, but the ratio is relatively the same. There's actually plenty of room for support mages in progression and even reclear. If rdm were to get any kind of buff, I'd rather them just get an embolden buff than a flat personal dps buff.

[Kejara]

To be fair, rdm without raises and cure is just a black mage that has ver infront of all their spells flavor wise, isn't exactly a "red mage" anymore at that point. Also the ratios between what a red mage does compared to a blm isn't that far off from how it was in alphascape, the average dps values have just increased by 2x, but the ratio is relatively the same. There's actually plenty of room for support mages in progression and even reclear. If rdm were to get any kind of buff, I'd rather them just get an embolden buff than a flat personal dps buff.

To be even more fair, just the inclusion of a cure and a raise doesn't a red mage make either. By that definition a summoner is a red mage too. No, it is a bastardization of a beloved archetype because of SE's inability to add any meaningful support jobs due to the formulaic approach in job and encounter design. As a savage raider, I agree that we can clear content. However, this requires a team that accepts the DPS loss for bringing a RDM. There is a mathematical DPS loss that is realized as a result of bringing a RDM. In fact, why would you bring one at all? Do you often bring a contingency plan or just teach your members not to die? In the rare instance that a DPS in a farm group does die, swiftcast raise from one of the healers is almost always a better choice. It is a fact that RDMs are being openly discriminated against. I am certain that that every savage group knows they could have better DPS by excluding the RDM. It's really not about whether a static group is accepting of this fact but rather how it makes the RDM player feel. You feel like a detriment to your group because you know that you could bring better DPS on another job. Better DPS equals faster clears and less chance for death due to decreased encounter length.

[Zerathor]

To be even more fair, just the inclusion of a cure and a raise doesn't a red mage make either. By that definition a summoner is a red mage too. No, it is a bastardization of a beloved archetype because of SE's inability to add any meaningful support jobs due to the formulaic approach in job and encounter design. As a savage raider, I agree that we can clear content. However, this requires a team that accepts the DPS loss for bringing a RDM. There is a mathematical DPS loss that is realized as a result of bringing a RDM. In fact, why would you bring one at all? Do you often bring a contingency plan or just teach your members not to die? In the rare instance that a DPS in a farm group does die, swiftcast raise from one of the healers is almost always a better choice. It is a fact that RDMs are being openly discriminated against. I am certain that that every savage group knows they could have better DPS by excluding the RDM. It's really not about whether a static group is accepting of this fact but rather how it makes the RDM player feel. You feel like a detriment to your group because you know that you could bring better DPS on another job. Better DPS equals faster clears and less chance for death due to decreased encounter length.

we actually bring a rdm in our savage groups lol. the rdm being there has never been an issue. Its actually been extremely helpful to the party for learning fights, people accept the dps loss because it's still a very useful tool, more useful than I think you understand. People make mistakes from time to time, especially while learning. Adding a safety net for consistency just saves a lot of headache in the grand scheme of things. Going for speed runs is an entirely other ballpark that isn't going to even be relevant until everyone is max geared.

Going for just general clears however, rdm is still great. It just depends on the rest of your party not being absolutely horrible dps

[IchiExorz]

we actually bring a rdm in our savage groups lol. the rdm being there has never been an issue. Its actually been extremely helpful to the party for learning fights, people accept the dps loss because it's still a very useful tool, more useful than I think you understand. People make mistakes from time to time, especially while learning. Adding a safety net for consistency just saves a lot of headache in the grand scheme of things. Going for speed runs is an entirely other ballpark that isn't going to even be relevant until everyone is max geared.

Going for just general clears however, rdm is still great. It just depends on the rest of your party not being absolutely horrible dps

RDM is without a doubt useful and worth taking when learning/progressing but the problem is that they fall off by a lot when a group manages to clear it and starts farming/speedclearing it. Sure you can still kill it with a RDM but having a RDM at that point would be a detriment to your group.
For raid statics it probably won't be too much of a problem but for pug groups this is a disaster.

Also for the RDM player it's not very fun either to know that if they played any other caster they'd be more useful to their team at that point.
Their utility will be near useless then & all they're left with is some of the lowest DPS in the game.

While on the contrary, while learning or progressing I don't think a BLM player will complain about not being useful if they're ahead in dps by a lot.

[Eliadil]

People want to be viable in end game content and not feel like they are holding their teams back. [snip]

The issue with the current rdm and smn is that most of their utility comes in the form of raise and cure, things that you don't need when you've cleared Savage once and if you wanna farm it/do a speedkill. Tbh, I still don't see why they choose to keep a healing spell on Summoner, but hey what do I know I'm just a filthy sam main.

What should be done tbh is maybe tone up the damage buff that some class provides indeed. As for ninja tho, I do agree that the job needs to change a lot right now. I don't think that damage dealt by RDM and SMN is an issue, I think that in the contrary, the current buffs/raid utilities are an issue.

The dev team tried their best to remove some synergy in comps, and tried their best to change the fact that there was a "meta" comp in 4.0.
I think that they are afraid of giving bigger buffs right now because they don't want to have the same thing as with Ninja in Stormblood as an example, where most openers were defined around Trick Attack because it was that good of an ability for your group (along with ninja being not as bad as it is right now). And technically they should completely be afraid of giving even bigger buffs. Because while 1% damage increase doesn't seem much, for an entire group it does mean a lot, and things could get really dumb really quickly... But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't give some class better raid buffs, I just think that this isn't the thing you tweak without proper reflections.

(also, right now Sam ain't even worth a dragoon or a monk in a group, and the class itself cannot compete with these two because both do really good numbers while having utility on the top. I mean, we've all seen what happened with 4.0 SAM and party finder lmao. I just don't want that to happen again, not just for samurai but for every class. I'm just trying to say that maybe you should try and focus more on the utility and buffs your class could give/should be balanced around rather than trying to play a black mage with embolden. The goal is to keep every class viable, not toss one into the corner for an entire expac because it doesn't give enough utility or doesn't deal enough damage for his (lack of) good utility.)