Lack of End Game Content

[Zabuza]

So you got lucky with pugs and you claim that's going to happen for many people? Haha my guy there are people in pf that can't grasp simple mechanics and can't even hold their own in a fight. But obviously you are so great and better than everyone else so it is not fine for you to clear that fast. Look, I cleared the ENTIRETY of sigmascape in pugs but were they good pugs? They were better than my static at the time... sure but they were still wiping the group tons. I semi quit raiding next tier because I was bored and busy with real life. I didn't care one bit for Alphascape savage but I did do O9S and people were wiping that insanely easy fight. You have gotten 3 turns down in a week which is very possible if you spend lots of time trying to learn and that is CLEARLY what you have done. Sure, go beat E4S and then claim there is no challenging endgame content when you haven't killed both ultimates yet. AGAIN, IT IS NOT EASILY BEATABLE. You seriously just got lucky. I can't find a party worth a damn to even clear the first turn this tier yet but I expect that cause it is a pick up group by definition and I have been in 2 hours at most.

PS: You dont speak for the entirety of players here just cause you got lucky groups. More endgame content would be nice but for people that want challenging content there is ultimate. And I mean actual Ultimate clears... not using voice call outs for the mechanics via a bot like players have done to trivialize it. Also, I can't stress this enough. If you are bored with the monotonous cycle where gear is useless in 3 months then why are you hurting yourself and then unsubbing before doing it over again. You clearly dont enjoy it so why even play at all at that point?

Luck? No, I put in time and unfortunately, during week 1 you do have to either leave a group if you think it's not working out, or reform with those who proved they can perform. It's not personal, but if people are dying then noone in that group is going to clear. You call it luck when I said beforehand I was going to clear 1-3 the first week? Anyways, my point was not to try to imply I'm 'better than everyone else'. I really don't think that at all. That's where your insecurity comes in. I'm telling you that I shouldn't be clearing this content this quickly. That's a design fault, not a result of me being some kind of godlike player. I'm also pretty close to clearing e4s right now as well. It amazes me that people are enjoying the same old cycle of content fed to them for 6 years with the tomestone/extreme/savage formula and such. Do you not want the devs to try to innovate just a tad? Your blind acceptance of this formula just encourages laziness from them.

P.S. I only brought up me clearing these raids as proof of what we've been saying before, since you guys love to rail others who ask for more endgame stuff when they don't show as having Savage clears, as if that disqualifies them from wanting more robust endgame content. Now I give you proof of what people have been saying about the content being too easy, and you call it luck. Yeah, okay. Believe what you want to.

[Ibkee]

Luck? No, I put in time and unfortunately, during week 1 you do have to either leave a group if you think it's not working out, or reform with those who proved they can perform. It's not personal, but if people are dying then noone in that group is going to clear. You call it luck when I said beforehand I was going to clear 1-3 the first week? Anyways, my point was not to try to imply I'm 'better than everyone else'. I really don't think that at all. That's where your insecurity comes in. I'm telling you that I shouldn't be clearing this content this quickly. That's a design fault, not a result of me being some kind of godlike player. I'm also pretty close to clearing e4s right now as well. It amazes me that people are enjoying the same old cycle of content fed to them for 6 years with the tomestone/extreme/savage formula and such. Do you not want the devs to try to innovate just a tad? Your blind acceptance of this formula just encourages laziness from them.

P.S. I only brought up me clearing these raids as proof of what we've been saying before, since you guys love to rail others who ask for more endgame stuff when they don't show as having Savage clears, as if that disqualifies them from wanting more robust endgame content. Now I give you proof of what people have been saying about the content being too easy, and you call it luck. Yeah, okay. Believe what you want to.

For context, you've been moaning about the game being too easy and the formula being too boring for at least 4 years now. I'm not quite sure what you want people to tell you, at this stage.

People can make excuses like "oh, Ultimate is coming in 5.1" or "the world first clear time for e4s was in line with o4s", but at the end of the day it gets dark. It's obvious the game isn't what you're looking for. While others are contented, you demand more. It's not enough for you and it never will be. You don't enjoy Final Fantasy XIV, you enjoy your idealised version of Final Fantasy XIV that doesn't exist and will never exist.

There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do, but lashing out at people who actively enjoy the game for being what is won't do much. Note, enjoy, not put up with. You seem to think we just ignore what you perceive as the game's flaws, rather than those being one of the big reasons we play in the first place.
My advice is to get your e4s clear, then unsub until Ultimate, likely coming in October. Then again, perhaps you may find peace of mind by simply searching out a new experience which ticks the boxes for you. Have you tried WoW?

[Zabuza]

For context, you've been moaning about the game being too easy and the formula being too boring for at least 4 years now. I'm not quite sure what you want people to tell you, at this stage.

People can make excuses like "oh, Ultimate is coming in 5.1" or "the world first clear time for e4s was in line with o4s", but at the end of the day it gets dark. It's obvious the game isn't what you're looking for. While others are contented, you demand more. It's not enough for you and it never will be. You don't enjoy Final Fantasy XIV, you enjoy your idealised version of Final Fantasy XIV that doesn't exist and will never exist.

There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do, but lashing out at people who actively enjoy the game for being what is won't do much. Note, enjoy, not put up with. You seem to think we just ignore what you perceive as the game's flaws, rather than those being one of the big reasons we play in the first place.
My advice is to get your e4s clear, then unsub until Ultimate, likely coming in October. Then again, perhaps you may find peace of mind by simply searching out a new experience which ticks the boxes for you. Have you tried WoW?

I lashed out because quite a few were actively trying to shut down my opinions and block my suggestions from reaching devs by saying 'no, everything is fine nothing new needs to be added even endgame is completely perfect.' Yes, I have tried WoW for about a year and left. Thank you bringing out my post from 4 years ago. I didn't even remember it existed. Kinda sad to think back on it now and realize no effort has been put in from the dev team to make endgame any better. You may be right that perhaps I should quit. But this game won't retain any kind of sizable endgame base with this formula. It really is missing out. That concerned me because FF has been my favorite franchise since I was a kid and I wanted them to succeed. I wanted them to draw in casuals and endgame players alike. It simply cannot keep endgame players like this, though. It is sad to think about. Maybe not for casuals, but for me, it is. But I guess what you and others are trying to say is you guys don't really want to coexist with raiders at all. You are afraid that we will somehow tarnish your jewel by making suggestions to try to better this game.

Sorry, I shouldn't be harsh in my tone with you since you haven't been towards me. Honestly, if there was an MMO out there that I have enjoyed recently, I'd definitely go there in a second.

[Millybonk]

Who's doing that? I was responding to the claim that instanced content is wasted. Someone else wants to jump in to disagree over me saying these contents are used in endgame therefore they indirectly become endgame content is not me denying anything as far as what the original post is asking.

As far as the original post is concerned, I support their request, though I doubt the current FFXIV design would allow much to be done in that regard.

Every non-ShB instance is only "endgame" in terms of currency rewarded due to the tomestone reward for doing a roulette, as a lvl 80 has no use for any item drop in those instances - so even the term "endgame" for doing old, non-scaled instances just to get a singular currency is questionable.

Imagine: if Expert roulette would be the only roulette to reward 5.x tomestones no one would be doing any other roulette -> every non-ShB content would be instantly obsolete for every lvl 80 character.

Agreed on the last paragraph: with the scope of lowest common denominator + the usual release cycle of trials/Ex/Savage until a new patch they've developed the game into a corner:

• I reckon the majority of players don't care much for difficult combat or aren't even capable of beating it in the first place
• With a fixed release cycle the game becomes stale at any point X towards the end of a patch, which means every max-level player can only do a very limited set of content over and over, and that gets old very quickly
• They have the tools to offer challenges: scaling-tech is already used, but so far only in scaling players down to fixed values for a certain dungeon, e.g. Sastasha. What they just need to do is doing the opposite = scaling mobs in an instanced content up, and you could play every instanced group content in the game on lvl 80. Sprinkle current tomestones, additional challenges + lvl 80 item drops on top of it and I reckon most of the dissatisfaction/resentment regarding a lack of endgame content will be gone

[Millybonk]

For context, you've been moaning about the game being too easy and the formula being too boring for at least 4 years now. I'm not quite sure what you want people to tell you, at this stage.

People can make excuses like "oh, Ultimate is coming in 5.1" or "the world first clear time for e4s was in line with o4s", but at the end of the day it gets dark. It's obvious the game isn't what you're looking for. While others are contented, you demand more. It's not enough for you and it never will be. You don't enjoy Final Fantasy XIV, you enjoy your idealised version of Final Fantasy XIV that doesn't exist and will never exist.

There's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do, but lashing out at people who actively enjoy the game for being what is won't do much. Note, enjoy, not put up with. You seem to think we just ignore what you perceive as the game's flaws, rather than those being one of the big reasons we play in the first place.
My advice is to get your e4s clear, then unsub until Ultimate, likely coming in October. Then again, perhaps you may find peace of mind by simply searching out a new experience which ticks the boxes for you. Have you tried WoW?

I already get suspicious when someone is labeling criticism as "moaning".

And you don't disappoint:

• He is criticizing the clear lack of lvl 80 content, one distinct topic of the whole that if FF14, and in your mind that equates to "You don't enjoy FF14". Please describe your trail of though step by step until you can reach such a conclusion while adhering to logical coherence
• How do you know "it's not enough for him and it will never be"? And how can you proclaim that "...others are content" when the forums/in-game chat is filled with criticism? Do you somehow speak for an unnamed majority?
• Offering harsh criticism is "lashing out at people"?
• A sub-game like a MMORPGs depends on longevity, and here you are telling someone who wants to stay stubbed to play challenging content to "come back later when more of the same will be on the menu". Not the smartest advice, hm?

Just from that single post of yours you strike me as someone who can't face criticism and instead of falsifying the counter-arguments you resorts to hiding behind unnamed majorities "...others are content" or trying to discredit the bearer of said criticism, here labeling criticism as "moaning".

[SaberMaxwell]

I lashed out because quite a few were actively trying to shut down my opinions and block my suggestions from reaching devs by saying 'no, everything is fine nothing new needs to be added even endgame is completely perfect.' Yes, I have tried WoW for about a year and left. Thank you bringing out my post from 4 years ago. I didn't even remember it existed. Kinda sad to think back on it now and realize no effort has been put in from the dev team to make endgame any better. You may be right that perhaps I should quit. But this game won't retain any kind of sizable endgame base with this formula. It really is missing out. That concerned me because FF has been my favorite franchise since I was a kid and I wanted them to succeed. I wanted them to draw in casuals and endgame players alike. It simply cannot keep endgame players like this, though. It is sad to think about. Maybe not for casuals, but for me, it is. But I guess what you and others are trying to say is you guys don't really want to coexist with raiders at all. You are afraid that we will somehow tarnish your jewel by making suggestions to try to better this game.

Sorry, I shouldn't be harsh in my tone with you since you haven't been towards me. Honestly, if there was an MMO out there that I have enjoyed recently, I'd definitely go there in a second.

It's hard to swallow something like "this endgame is unsustainable" when...it is actually very sustainable. It's sustained for almost 6 years now. In fact the last time endgame was in trouble was when Savage was overturned and world first raiders took longer than a week to kill it.

I stand by my statement that this endgame works. I think it works much better now that Ultimate was conceived. I think the time between Ultimate and Savage is good, it gives even non-week-1 killers ample time to get BiS to tackle it.

Savage could be better. I don't think that means (nor am I saying that's your statement) it's in a bad place. I say this as someone who's killed both Ultimates several times, and killed E4S week 1, before there's any insinuation that I'm a casual stating this.

[Vivi_Bushido]

I think the challenge logs should have their own type of wonderous trails book. Every time you complete a challenge log you get a stamp. Or something. There basically just needs to be more reoccurring weekly achievements like WT but with more variety. Something a bit more unique. Like instead of a WT that's like do this trial again. Which can be done unsync, these challenges could be more like, gain at least 10levels on a job this week. Craft 100 items not in quick synth. Defeat 50 A ranks. Do 10 Leveling Roulettes. It can honestly be anything, but what I mean is it's like the WT but in the forum of like the challenge log and it changes each week where as the challenge logs always stay consistent. And completing these give rewards that aren't just exp or 1000gil. They have their own type of currency and it can buy things akin to stuff you'd find at the gold saucer.

Im sure someone else can improve off this idea.

[Millybonk]

It's hard to swallow something like "this endgame is unsustainable" when...it is actually very sustainable. It's sustained for almost 6 years now. In fact the last time endgame was in trouble was when Savage was overturned and world first raiders took longer than a week to kill it.

I stand by my statement that this endgame works. I think it works much better now that Ultimate was conceived. I think the time between Ultimate and Savage is good, it gives even non-week-1 killers ample time to get BiS to tackle it.

Savage could be better. I don't think that means (nor am I saying that's your statement) it's in a bad place. I say this as someone who's killed both Ultimates several times, and killed E4S week 1, before there's any insinuation that I'm a casual stating this.

What do you mean by sustainable:

• Do you refer to the always same iteration of the release cycle, and the fact that game is still running while using said release cycle?
• Do you refer to that only a fraction of people even bother with endgame activities and its sustainable this way, as even if all of them left the game would still be running?

This endgame doesn't really "work" for anyone seeking challenging content, or challenging content outside of Ex/savage:

• 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, Ex trials, 1 raid, Savage raid - that's it until the next major release; and if you're like me who rather has challenging group, but not raid content you can leave the minute you've done all 3 dungeons, as there is just nothing left
• There are only so many repetitions you're doing of the current endgame content until you either don't play your lvl 80 anymore and focus on other activities, or you unsub until the next major patch

Theme-park MMORPGs are like a buffet, as you should have food for your different customer groups/personas, but currently the "wants challenging content" group only has a tiny selection of food it can eat - and if I were the host of said buffet I'd make sure that even that particular group has enough variety to chose from.

[SaberMaxwell]

What do you mean by sustainable:

• Do you refer to the always same iteration of the release cycle, and the fact that game is still running while using said release cycle?
• Do you refer to that only a fraction of people even bother with endgame activities and its sustainable this way, as even if all of them left the game would still be running?

This endgame doesn't really "work" for anyone seeking challenging content, or challenging content outside of Ex/savage:

• 3 lvl 80 dungeons, 3 trials up to lvl 80, Ex trials, 1 raid, Savage raid - that's it until the next major release; and if you're like me who rather has challenging group, but not raid content you can leave the minute you've done all 3 dungeons, as there is just nothing left
• There are only so many repetitions you're doing of the current endgame content until you either don't play your lvl 80 anymore and focus on other activities, or you unsub until the next major patch

Theme-park MMORPGs are like a buffet, as you should have food for your different customer groups/personas, but currently the "wants challenging content" group only has a tiny selection of food it can eat - and if I were the host of said buffet I'd make sure that even that particular group has enough variety to chose from.

I refer to the fact that despite being told for almost six years now that this endgame is stale and FFXIV needs to diversify or it will die...maybe I stopped believing that entirely by now.

It could stand to diversify. Incidentally how does the proposed addition of two extra Savage fights affect the difficulty you're after?

[SaberMaxwell]

I'm not saying that the game is perfect; it could improve for sure. I also admit bias in liking the current Savage+ model for endgame, where BiS becomes a means to an end, that end being the hardest fights in the game.

I am saying that I'm numb to the rhetoric of "if this game doesn't change it's gonna die!" I've been there. I've thought that. But here we are still, six years on.