Goodbye Astro

[LariaKirin]

If you want hard numbers just go watch the abysmal growth of AST parses on FFlogs. If it truly was in such a good spot then its numbers should have spiked these past 4 days. Except they have not, while the WHM and SCH numbers regularly increase by 200 every other day.

Why should have they have spiked these last 4 days? Why would a job being strong automatically mean people will play it? BLM is very strong, I don't see it topping the fflogs statistics you seem to like so much.

I say a job is strong. You respond with "Not enough people play it". How does that compute?

So you are saying that I should watch my BLM like a hawk to know what stage of the rotation they are in just so I can precisely time throwing my buff out. Which means I will be lacking in paying attention to the rest of my party and doing my job worse. I should also at the same time be counting the shots my MCH party member makes and how long it has been since they used wildfire so I know precisely when they are about to enter a burst window so that I have a card ready to slap on them when they are about to wildfire burst.

Counting the shots? MCH uses Wildfire on CD. If MCH used it at 0:05, then they're using it at 2:05, 4:05, 6:05, etc.

I'm saying that if you know more about the other jobs in the party you'll see significant gains over slapping cards willy nilly.

Obviously, you wouldn't do this if it interferes with your normal play. But if you care about maximizing RDPS contribution through your cards, this system is significantly more interesting.

If that is your nuance in the system then its pretty pathetic and takes away from doing your job of keeping people alive.

Is this what it's about? Jealous of DNC? You don't have to worry, DNC and AST do not compete for the same spot.

AST currently makes up 16.6% of the healer parses on E1, or 4897 out of 29247. If you go E1S then it is 13.4%, or 4624 out of 34360. If you go up through normal it stays consistent in that for every 1 AST there will be 3 WHMs and roughly 2 SCHs. If you go up Savage then the amount of ASTs drastically drops to where you have up to 14 WHMs or SCHs per AST.

FFlogs are not a good indicator for many reasons:
- Not everyone parses.
- Out of all people that parse, not everyone uploads logs.
- One person accounts for multiple logs. If I parse two runs of Eden and upload, I count as two SCH parses.

In fact, if I go into E1S today and clear it 100000 times, then by your logic, AST would be the most popular job.


Anyways, I'm done. AST is strong. The healers are more balanced than they've ever been. People will realize it sooner or later.

[Billythepancake]

Anyways, I'm done. AST is strong. The healers are more balanced than they've ever been. People will realize it sooner or later.

So it being strong and balanced is justification for it not being well designed? You know what other job was strong and balanced in SB? MCH
It could actively compete with BRD, it may not have had all the utility BRD had, but it did have refresh, tactician, feint, palliside, which it shared with BRD, but it also had it's own dismantle and a vulnerability up, which were both really good, but not as much as all the utility BRD had, but it made up for that because it could pull great damage, making it perfectly viable and meta to have a MCH over a BRD, but, despite all that, it was the least popular class in the expansion. Why? Because it felt like trash to play. Even if something has good numbers, that does not make up for a playstyle that isn't fun to play, fullstop.

AST is in the same scenario. Yes, it's balanced, and yeah, its viable to have one, but it feels terrible to play. The only people who would bother with that sort of thing are hardcore raiders that want to push out the MAXIMUM dps they possibly can. Everyone else though? Why bother, that's way too much of a headache.

[LariaKirin]

So it being strong and balanced is justification for it not being well designed?

Second time you straw-man me. Did I say it is strong and balanced, therefore it's ok for it to not be well designed?

We do not operate on the same premise. What I am saying in this chain of posts is that the new system is better designed than the unreliable RNG mess of Stormblood. That would've been clear if you paid any attention to what I wrote.

[Billythepancake]

Second time you straw-man me. Did I say it is strong and balanced, therefore it's ok for it to not be well designed?

We do not operate on the same premise. What I am saying in this chain of posts is that the new system is better designed than the unreliable RNG mess of Stormblood. That would've been clear if you paid any attention to what I wrote.

You literally said "AST is strong and healers are balanced" The new system is better designed for optimal play, and optimal play only. For the people that did not care about optimal play, which, is a lot of people, this is a downgrade in every sense, as has been made VERY clear in this post and many others. Design isn't just "muh numbers, my parse" its "how does it FEEL to play"? And if you're in a well optimized environment and you're galaxy braining every single move you do, it probably feels great and you feel like you're making a huge impact. What about the more casual player though? How do they feel about these changes? I think a quick read through these forums will tell you that.

I even hated AST in SB because I couldn't stand RNG, it felt awkward to me to play, BUT, I still wouldn't want it to change, because of all the people who lived for that feeling of "make the best out of what you got" or loved that feeling of spinning a slot machine. I prefer the new AST over the old one myself, but I still think it's terrible because I never wanted AST to be designed for me.

[LariaKirin]

You literally said "AST is strong and healers are balanced" The new system is better designed for optimal play, and optimal play only. For the people that did not care about optimal play, which, is a lot of people, this is a downgrade in every sense, as has been made VERY clear in this post and many others. Design isn't just "muh numbers, my parse" its "how does it FEEL to play"? And if you're in a well optimized environment and you're galaxy braining every single move you do, it probably feels great and you feel like you're making a huge impact. What about the more casual player though? How do they feel about these changes? I think a quick read through these forums will tell you that.

I even hated AST in SB because I couldn't stand RNG, it felt awkward to me to play, BUT, I still wouldn't want it to change, because of all the people who lived for that feeling of "make the best out of what you got" or loved that feeling of spinning a slot machine. I prefer the new AST over the old one myself, but I still think it's terrible because I never wanted AST to be designed for me.

I did say "AST is strong and healers are balanced". "It's ok for it to not be well designed" is not something I said, but something you attributed to me.

The example I gave is just one of the interesting things you can do with the new system. There are others things, like stacking as many single target cards as you can with Divination. These are just cool things you can do to improve your contribution, but are in no way required. The card buffs will be useful regardless. In response to the person saying it's just a coin flip.

The reason the new system is better designed is because it's not an RNG-fest, but a reliable, predictable system you can balance. The fact that people can't get over a system they're used to does not change that.

[Billythepancake]

I did say "AST is strong and healers are balanced". "It's ok for it to not be well designed" is not something I said, but something you attributed to me.

The example I gave is just one of the interesting things you can do with the new system. There are others things, like stacking as many single target cards as you can with Divination. These are just cool things you can do to improve your contribution, but are in no way required. The card buffs will be useful regardless. In response to the person saying it's just a coin flip.

The reason the new system is better designed is because it's not an RNG-fest, but a reliable, predictable system you can balance. The fact that people can't get over a system they're used to does not change that.

You didn't flat out say "the new system is badly designed" but considering that fans here, and in every other region, are going over how it is a far cry of what is what it used to be, with a lot of people being upset about it both in forums and in game, ergo, leading people to saying it's bad design. In a vacuum, your argument might be alright, but it is not a vacuum, what we had before fit people's play style, and felt better to use, and having something like this is a downgrade, maybe not in terms of sheer numbers or raw output, but in terms of how it feels to play at both a basic level and at a high level, at the very least comparatively. Taking steps backwards, in what is arguably the most important aspect of a job (how it feels and how it plays) is bad design, and advocating that, while not flat out saying "bad design is okay", is still arguing for bad design.

Edit because daily post limits are stupid:

I will continue to defend the new card system because 5.05 is the first time I've ever considered playing AST as anything other than a break from SCH.

Don't pretend like there's some kind of unanimity. I'm not the only one who prefers the new card system. Excessive RNG is bad for you.

So because it appeals to you and a small other group of people it's good design? Is that what you're saying? So people who prefer the RNG on a card based class, you know cards, something that is RNG by nature, are wrong to say that ast in 4.x was fun and well designed? You know Sonic 06? There are people who like that game, a very small group of people but they do exist, so because of their existence should we consider Sonic 06 to be a well designed game?

I can agree that, imo, I didnt like RNG, but RNG does fit the themes of a card based class. A better solution imo,would have been to simply have a way to manipulate the RNG, but at a cost. Something like you can guarantee a balance or whatever card you're looking for, but the ability that does that has a long CD, say 60 seconds, and your next draw/redraw is guaranteed to not be that card. This way you can guarantee get balance every other card if you want it, but the rng and different effects are still there. Or you can gamble and see if you get a balance without using it, so you can get 2 balances in a row. One way is more consistent, the other way there's a chance that you could do better if you have good luck. Both sides can be happy, or at least one side is less frustrated with the other side not upset.

[LariaKirin]

You didn't flat out say "the new system is badly designed" but considering that fans here, and in every other region, are going over how it is a far cry of what is what it used to be, with a lot of people being upset about it both in forums and in game, ergo, leading people to saying it's bad design. In a vacuum, your argument might be alright, but it is not a vacuum, what we had before fit people's play style, and felt better to use, and having something like this is a downgrade, maybe not in terms of sheer numbers or raw output, but in terms of how it feels to play at both a basic level and at a high level, at the very least comparatively. Taking steps backwards, in what is arguably the most important aspect of a job (how it feels and how it plays) is bad design, and advocating that, while not flat out saying "bad design is okay", is still arguing for bad design.

I will continue to defend the new card system because 5.05 is the first time I've ever considered playing AST as anything other than a break from SCH.

Don't pretend like there's some kind of unanimity. I'm not the only one who prefers the new card system. Excessive RNG is bad for you.

[Mesarthim]

The reason the new system is better designed is because it's not an RNG-fest, but a reliable, predictable system you can balance. The fact that people can't get over a system they're used to does not change that.

If there's anything someone needs to get over it's you and your high horse about how "amazing" the new card system is and that we're somehow wrong for thinking otherwise. Myself and others actually liked the old card system so it's kind of insulting to a degree for someone like you to come along and tell us to "get over it."

Yes there's no denying that cards like spire needed to change, especially with TP being removed from Shadowbringers. This does not however automatically mean that the system was bad. Personally I think "you" need to get over it.

[Ceasaria]

FFlogs are not a good indicator for many reasons:
- Not everyone parses.
- Out of all people that parse, not everyone uploads logs.
- One person accounts for multiple logs. If I parse two runs of Eden and upload, I count as two SCH parses.

In fact, if I go into E1S today and clear it 100000 times, then by your logic, AST would be the most popular job.

When one player uploads, every other player in the team will be counted too.
So not every AST parses were uploaded by these AST players, which mean your point 1 and 2 are invalidate and shows that FFlogs is a good indicator of the popularity for the jobs.

Anyways, I'm done. AST is strong. The healers are more balanced than they've ever been. People will realize it sooner or later.

No.

[LariaKirin]

When one player uploads, every other player in the team will be counted too.
So not every AST parses were uploaded by these AST players, which mean your point 1 and 2 are invalidate and shows that FFlogs is a good indicator of the popularity for the jobs.

That's true, but it doesn't change a thing. If you suddenly introduce 100000 new parses of WHM + AST of the same party, then by your logic, the conclusion is that SCH is very unpopular. Which is flat out wrong.

Not invalidated in the slightest. No, not every AST parse is uploaded by AST players.
Also: Not every parse is uploaded and not every run of the content is parsed.

FFlogs does not provide data that will give you a good measure of popularity.