Goodbye Astro

[LariaKirin]

Before: Balance, two situational balances, three utilities, one damage and one heal. The ability to burn a card to buff the next.

Now: Eight way worse balances. And three redraws so if you don't like your way worse balance you can trade it for another way worse balance.


Eight whole cards with eight different effects turned into a coin toss with two similar outcomes.


AST mains played AST because of the cards and their semi RNG which involved fast decision making and made them feel powerful. And unique.
To turn this all into a coin toss that's either heads or heads is like removing jumps from Dragoons, or buffs from Bards... whoops, sorry!

How does anything you said change the old system from an unreliable pile of RNG mess to not an unreliable pile of RNG mess? I won't bother because enough has been said about the shortcomings of the old system.

You do not speak for AST mains, you speak for yourself. This is not as one-sided of an opinion as you think. Too bad the people who can't move on and won't adapt seem the most vocal around here.

The way you oversimplify the new system is incredibly disingenuous and it seems you completely forgot that Divination and seals even exist. It's quite clear you've not thought at all about the potential of the new cards.

Now that the cards do not span the entire duration of most jobs' rotation, it's no longer as simple as throwing it on the highest DPS.

Let me give you a scenario: BLM and MCH, equally competent. BLM pulls higher DPS, naturally. You draw Ewer (oh god why? oh wait, it's no longer garbage). BLM is casting Despair. MCH is about to build up Wildfire. Who do you pick?

[TankHunter678]

How does anything you said change the old system from an unreliable pile of RNG mess to not an unreliable pile of RNG mess? I won't bother because enough has been said about the shortcomings of the old system.

The shortcomings of the old system transferred over to the new system only worse because the duration and effect was heavily slashed, the cards were split into melee/range and then split further into 3 seals. Where in the old system only top end raiding fished instead at all content you fish for particular cards. Until you get your seals at which all that matters is the range type for you to minor arcana.

You do not speak for AST mains, you speak for yourself. This is not as one-sided of an opinion as you think. Too bad the people who can't move on and won't adapt seem the most vocal around here.

Its the majority, shared across all three regions. There are more people upset and throwing away the class then there are those who like it. AST's representation in high end content has all but vanished, and their appearance in normal content ques has all but vanished.

The way you oversimplify the new system is incredibly disingenuous and it seems you completely forgot that Divination and seals even exist. It's quite clear you've not thought at all about the potential of the new cards.

He is not oversimplifying the system. It merely IS that oversimplified. You have 1 card effect spread over 8 cards. Seals and the melee/range split only exist so that the card system itself can exist. Divination's only purpose is to be the AoE buff, and only tracks seals so that seals had a reason to exist to support the card system itself existing. The potential of the new cards is shallow with no width. All it takes is a glance and you know the complete potential of the new cards. All that matters is the system hands you the ones you need so that you do not have needless frustration.

Now that the cards do not span the entire duration of most jobs' rotation, it's no longer as simple as throwing it on the highest DPS.

Now that the cards do not have a duration worth a damn their weak effects lack impact. As a result ASTs overall impact is weak. The weaker the buff the longer the duration needs to be, which is why Dancer's buffs work and why Dancer is an automatic pick for many raid groups while AST is left to gather dust.

Let me give you a scenario: BLM and MCH, equally competent. BLM pulls higher DPS, naturally. You draw Ewer (oh god why? oh wait, it's no longer garbage). BLM is casting Despair. MCH is about to build up Wildfire. Who do you pick?

It would not matter which one you throw it on. If the MCH is outputting 12k DPS then giving him the card is an extra 720 DPS. If the BLM is doing 13k DPS then throwing the card on him adds an extra 780 DPS. A 60 DPS difference.

The DPS difference between either of them is so small as to not matter. You throw it on whichever one you can click on faster.

[LariaKirin]

Its the majority, shared across all three regions. There are more people upset and throwing away the class then there are those who like it. AST's representation in high end content has all but vanished, and their appearance in normal content ques has all but vanished.

You know that for a fact because you've done the numbers. Please share.

Also, you know for a fact that AST's representation in high end content is because people are unhappy with the new cards, not due to the fact that it was severly undertuned for the entirety of Shadowbringers minus 4 days.

Now that the cards do not have a duration worth a damn their weak effects lack impact. As a result ASTs overall impact is weak. The weaker the buff the longer the duration needs to be, which is why Dancer's buffs work and why Dancer is an automatic pick for many raid groups while AST is left to gather dust.

What I am saying and what I am trying to illustrate with the example is that because the damage buff is on a shorter duration, you now have more nuanced decisions to make when choosing your target.

It would not matter which one you throw it on. If the MCH is outputting 12k DPS then giving him the card is an extra 720 DPS. If the BLM is doing 13k DPS then throwing the card on him adds an extra 780 DPS. A 60 DPS difference.

The DPS difference between either of them is so small as to not matter. You throw it on whichever one you can click on faster.

No wonder you don't understand the shorter duration thing. When you see 13k DPS on a Black Mage, do you think that any of their abilities equally contribute to the total DPS?

The reason it didn't matter with a 30 second Balance is because those 30 seconds would span the entire BLM rotation, therefore it wouldn't matter where they were in their rotation. If you use the card on the Black Mage in my scenario, you're boosting the following: Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder, Xeno, Fire III and maybe one Fire IV.

What you are telling me here is that the difference between MCH's Wildfire phase and BLM's ice phase is negligible.

[TankHunter678]

You know that for a fact because you've done the numbers. Please share.

Also, you know for a fact that AST's representation in high end content is because people are unhappy with the new cards, not due to the fact that it was severly undertuned for the entirety of Shadowbringers minus 4 days.

If you want hard numbers just go watch the abysmal growth of AST parses on FFlogs. If it truly was in such a good spot then its numbers should have spiked these past 4 days. Except they have not, while the WHM and SCH numbers regularly increase by 200 every other day.

Oh and when I see complaints about AST in game, it is always about the cards. When I see people say they are dumping AST they always cite the cards. Weaker healing could be put up with if the cards were worth it, but people do not feel the cards are worth it. Even the healing changes did not make AST any more prevalent because those changes were mainly aimed at EX Trials and the Savage Raids. The AoE healing it did have was sufficient for dungeons.

What I am saying and what I am trying to illustrate with the example is that because the damage buff is on a shorter duration, you now have more nuanced decisions to make when choosing your target.

No wonder you don't understand the shorter duration thing. When you see 13k DPS on a Black Mage, do you think that any of their abilities equally contribute to the total DPS?

The reason it didn't matter with a 30 second Balance is because those 30 seconds would span the entire BLM rotation, therefore it wouldn't matter where they were in their rotation. If you use the card on the Black Mage in my scenario, you're boosting the following: Blizzard III, Blizzard IV, Thunder, Xeno, Fire III and maybe one Fire IV.

What you are telling me here is that the difference between MCH's Wildfire phase and BLM's ice phase is negligible.

So you are saying that I should watch my BLM like a hawk to know what stage of the rotation they are in just so I can precisely time throwing my buff out. Which means I will be lacking in paying attention to the rest of my party and doing my job worse. I should also at the same time be counting the shots my MCH party member makes and how long it has been since they used wildfire so I know precisely when they are about to enter a burst window so that I have a card ready to slap on them when they are about to wildfire burst.

For incredibly tiny potential gains.

If that is your nuance in the system then its pretty pathetic and takes away from doing your job of keeping people alive. Must be why AST only functions for the most elite of elite of statics who call for this kind of stuff. Though you get better benefit out of just having your Dancer perma buff the BLM (or Monk). Though hey, perhaps that nuance is just so required that its little wonder the cards feel like they have no impact. Throw them in at the wrong time and the buff is squandered, which means 90% of AST players are screwing themselves on a regular basis. Nice to know. It just makes the new card system even more worthless.

I too wanna see this data.
And no, using savage numbers don't count because not everyone does Savage.
Though Eden normal is a better use since even causal players can beat e1.
Not accurate number but it's an idea.

If you're just going by the amount of complaining on the fourms, that's also not an accurate amount since only a small amount of players use the fourms.

AST currently makes up 16.6% of the healer parses on E1, or 4897 out of 29247. If you go E1S then it is 13.4%, or 4624 out of 34360. If you go up through normal it stays consistent in that for every 1 AST there will be 3 WHMs and roughly 2 SCHs. If you go up Savage then the amount of ASTs drastically drops to where you have up to 14 WHMs or SCHs per AST.

[LariaKirin]

If you want hard numbers just go watch the abysmal growth of AST parses on FFlogs. If it truly was in such a good spot then its numbers should have spiked these past 4 days. Except they have not, while the WHM and SCH numbers regularly increase by 200 every other day.

Why should have they have spiked these last 4 days? Why would a job being strong automatically mean people will play it? BLM is very strong, I don't see it topping the fflogs statistics you seem to like so much.

I say a job is strong. You respond with "Not enough people play it". How does that compute?

So you are saying that I should watch my BLM like a hawk to know what stage of the rotation they are in just so I can precisely time throwing my buff out. Which means I will be lacking in paying attention to the rest of my party and doing my job worse. I should also at the same time be counting the shots my MCH party member makes and how long it has been since they used wildfire so I know precisely when they are about to enter a burst window so that I have a card ready to slap on them when they are about to wildfire burst.

Counting the shots? MCH uses Wildfire on CD. If MCH used it at 0:05, then they're using it at 2:05, 4:05, 6:05, etc.

I'm saying that if you know more about the other jobs in the party you'll see significant gains over slapping cards willy nilly.

Obviously, you wouldn't do this if it interferes with your normal play. But if you care about maximizing RDPS contribution through your cards, this system is significantly more interesting.

If that is your nuance in the system then its pretty pathetic and takes away from doing your job of keeping people alive.

Is this what it's about? Jealous of DNC? You don't have to worry, DNC and AST do not compete for the same spot.

AST currently makes up 16.6% of the healer parses on E1, or 4897 out of 29247. If you go E1S then it is 13.4%, or 4624 out of 34360. If you go up through normal it stays consistent in that for every 1 AST there will be 3 WHMs and roughly 2 SCHs. If you go up Savage then the amount of ASTs drastically drops to where you have up to 14 WHMs or SCHs per AST.

FFlogs are not a good indicator for many reasons:
- Not everyone parses.
- Out of all people that parse, not everyone uploads logs.
- One person accounts for multiple logs. If I parse two runs of Eden and upload, I count as two SCH parses.

In fact, if I go into E1S today and clear it 100000 times, then by your logic, AST would be the most popular job.


Anyways, I'm done. AST is strong. The healers are more balanced than they've ever been. People will realize it sooner or later.

[Billythepancake]

Anyways, I'm done. AST is strong. The healers are more balanced than they've ever been. People will realize it sooner or later.

So it being strong and balanced is justification for it not being well designed? You know what other job was strong and balanced in SB? MCH
It could actively compete with BRD, it may not have had all the utility BRD had, but it did have refresh, tactician, feint, palliside, which it shared with BRD, but it also had it's own dismantle and a vulnerability up, which were both really good, but not as much as all the utility BRD had, but it made up for that because it could pull great damage, making it perfectly viable and meta to have a MCH over a BRD, but, despite all that, it was the least popular class in the expansion. Why? Because it felt like trash to play. Even if something has good numbers, that does not make up for a playstyle that isn't fun to play, fullstop.

AST is in the same scenario. Yes, it's balanced, and yeah, its viable to have one, but it feels terrible to play. The only people who would bother with that sort of thing are hardcore raiders that want to push out the MAXIMUM dps they possibly can. Everyone else though? Why bother, that's way too much of a headache.

[LariaKirin]

So it being strong and balanced is justification for it not being well designed?

Second time you straw-man me. Did I say it is strong and balanced, therefore it's ok for it to not be well designed?

We do not operate on the same premise. What I am saying in this chain of posts is that the new system is better designed than the unreliable RNG mess of Stormblood. That would've been clear if you paid any attention to what I wrote.

[Ceasaria]

FFlogs are not a good indicator for many reasons:
- Not everyone parses.
- Out of all people that parse, not everyone uploads logs.
- One person accounts for multiple logs. If I parse two runs of Eden and upload, I count as two SCH parses.

In fact, if I go into E1S today and clear it 100000 times, then by your logic, AST would be the most popular job.

When one player uploads, every other player in the team will be counted too.
So not every AST parses were uploaded by these AST players, which mean your point 1 and 2 are invalidate and shows that FFlogs is a good indicator of the popularity for the jobs.

Anyways, I'm done. AST is strong. The healers are more balanced than they've ever been. People will realize it sooner or later.

No.

[LariaKirin]

When one player uploads, every other player in the team will be counted too.
So not every AST parses were uploaded by these AST players, which mean your point 1 and 2 are invalidate and shows that FFlogs is a good indicator of the popularity for the jobs.

That's true, but it doesn't change a thing. If you suddenly introduce 100000 new parses of WHM + AST of the same party, then by your logic, the conclusion is that SCH is very unpopular. Which is flat out wrong.

Not invalidated in the slightest. No, not every AST parse is uploaded by AST players.
Also: Not every parse is uploaded and not every run of the content is parsed.

FFlogs does not provide data that will give you a good measure of popularity.