Bard in FF14 is so much like Hunter without Pet in Ragnarok Online

[HyoMinPark]

You clearly don't read formula they calculate.
Let me show abit of basic high school calculus.

rDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' external buffs) + (damage given to others by your own external buffs) - (aDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' single target external buffs))

you get .....damage give to others by your own external buffs.

That DNC difference between aDPS and rDPS is literally that. Don't come and tell me DNC don't give more buffs than Bard when the math, the data, the formula are all there and you insist to fail math.

Just going to repeat myself with added emphasis:

I never said otherwise - I'm well aware that DNC provides more buffs than BRD. HOWEVER, this is irrelevant when BRD gives more rDPS overall even with DNC's buffs.

This is a strange hill for you to want to die with your argument on.

[TcomJ]

Just going to repeat myself with added emphasis:

rDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' external buffs) + (damage given to others by your own external buffs) - (aDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' single target external buffs))

you get .....damage give to others by your own external buffs.

Me too.

[HyoMinPark]

rDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' external buffs) + (damage given to others by your own external buffs) - (aDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' single target external buffs))

you get .....damage give to others by your own external buffs.

Me too.

No one here is arguing that DNC doesn't provide more in terms of buffs than BRD. They are arguing that it doesn't matter because BRD's rDPS is higher regardless of how little buffs they offer the party. And rDPS is the only metric that matters in this analysis.

[TcomJ]

No one here is arguing that DNC doesn't provide more in terms of buffs than BRD. They are arguing that it doesn't matter because BRD's rDPS is higher regardless of how little buffs they offer the party. And rDPS is the only metric that matters in this analysis.

And I have been talking about bard identity that buffs the party especially damage buffs all go to DNC. Since you brag about rDPS and aDPS, you might want to get the definition or their formulae correct first before straw manning to other topics.

[TcomJ]

You really don't know how to read that data, do you? Oh well, here's another point for how data can be misused/badly interpreted.

Literally the entire point of the raid DPS display is to show that even though Dancer has party utility, the actual effect of the utility bonuses are so weak + Dancer personal DPS is so low that their total contribution can't really compare to just taking other classes along. You can argue how Dancer provides more damage buffs to other party members than any other class in the game. 10k personal damage + 1k given to other party members is still lower than 12k personal damage + 300 given to other party members, in a game where the raid scene is focused around beating enrage timers.

Though again, that is less about Bard VS Dancer, and more about the poor state of the balance between support and raw DPS classes in general.

(My interest in this topic is mostly from a design standpoint rather than anything selfish. I don't mean to argue to any lurking Dancers that your class is useless. My personal raid team runs both Bard and Dancer, after all, and I'd like to think we're doing alright since we're nearing the end of E3S right now.)

---

Regarding Apex Arrow, we are in agreement that it is a bad skill, just not how to actually address it. But rather than delete it, I'd rather have it changed - if only because you're going to be very disappointed for the next two years if you expect otherwise.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5127424

The developers straight up won't delete and replace it with a new skill mid-expansion. I don't recall that ever happening for any class in the history of this game - the closest thing might have been Warrior's Shake It Off, but that was because it was formerly a defensive skill that was entirely useless in 99% of situations (being a self-debuff cleanse that IIRC only worked on esuna-able debuffs, just like Warden's Paean).

I've already mentioned that they won't be able to remove abilities. It's a wishful thinking. But they didn't

1) Change the sound?
2) Bring back FR?

While SAM and SCH all got abilities back? This gotta be a joke.
Well, the Q/A was pretty obvious why they didn't.

[SaitoHikari]

You’re not reading what the argument is actually about. Maybe pause for a bit, think, and wait for an hour before coming up with a response.

We have been trying to tell you that no one is disputing that Dancer support is higher than every other DPS in the game.

What we’re arguing is whether it was worth it.

In the context of this expansion, the developers decided that having support options will come at a tax to your personal damage. Exactly how much this tax is appears to be rather arbitrary, going off of Ninja’s situation.

There’s literally no way Bard will get some support back without being taxed too. Going off your earlier suggestions, I don’t believe you understand that, or are actually prepared for what may happen in the low chance that the developers actually look at Bard anytime soon.

(Also, the way you speak in regards to the data sounds like you’re subtracting personal DPS score from raid DPS score or vice-versa. That’s not how that works. At all.)

[HyoMinPark]

And I have been talking about bard identity that buffs the party especially damage buffs all go to DNC. Since you brag about rDPS and aDPS, you might want to get the definition or their formulae correct first before straw manning to other topics.

You are so hung up on the differences in aDPS and the number of buffs DNC gives that you completely ignore that BRD's rDPS - despite Battle Voice being their only raid buff - is STILL HIGHER THAN DNC's. rDPS is the only metric that matters, so you need to drop this obsession you have with aDPS because those numbers are not important.

I've already mentioned that they won't be able to remove abilities. It's a wishful thinking. But they didn't

1) Change the sound?
2) Bring back FR?

While SAM and SCH all got abilities back? This gotta be a joke.
Well, the Q/A was pretty obvious why they didn't.

Bringing back Foe Requiem would be a far larger change compared to giving SCH an Aetherflow dump and SAM a Sen management skill. Those are more quality of life than direct buffs to damage. Bringing back Foe's would be a direct buff to BRD's rDPS, which would mean that the other two physical ranged may have to be adjusted to compensate for any disparity that may occur.

[TcomJ]

You’re not reading what the argument is actually about. Maybe pause for a bit, think, and wait for an hour before coming up with a response.

We have been trying to tell you that no one is disputing that Dancer support is higher than every other DPS in the game.

What we’re arguing is whether it was worth it.

In the context of this expansion, the developers decided that having support options will come at a tax to your personal damage. Exactly how much this tax is appears to be rather arbitrary, going off of Ninja’s situation.

There’s literally no way Bard will get some support back without being taxed too. Going off your earlier suggestions, I don’t believe you understand that, or are actually prepared for what may happen in the low chance that the developers actually look at Bard anytime soon.

(Also, the way you speak in regards to the data sounds like you’re subtracting personal DPS score from raid DPS score or vice-versa. That’s not how that works. At all.)

This is my thread one. And I have already said before they can lower personal DPS to keep the job identity. I've said so many times if they make every thing into just DPS number generator, people will be competing mostly for those numbers anyway and ignore all RPG aesthetic of roles.

Hence I have said people that have been arguing with me so far only care about their personal DPS or worry about their place for their new job DNC.

[HyoMinPark]

This is my thread one. And I have already said before they can lower personal DPS to keep the job identity. I've said so many times if they make every thing into just DPS number generator, people will be competing mostly for those numbers anyway and ignore all RPG aesthetic of roles.

I've read through this thread multiple times trying to find this argument, and I don't see it anywhere. Mind actually quoting it?

Regardless, with FFLogs switching to rDPS, padding matters less and less.

Hence I have said people that have been arguing with me so far only care about their personal DPS or worry about their place for their new job DNC.

This just proves that you haven't been reading the arguments, because in none of them have posters claimed they care about their personal damage nor are they saying DNC should be better than BRD.

I don't care whether my job has a place or not because I'm not a meta slave, and my static doesn't want me to be. I care that the physical ranged are all equally balanced without scales tipping in favor of one over the other three (which, has been the tendency for the last two years - BRD was blatantly favored over MCH throughout SB). As it stands currently, the three are closer to one another than the physical ranged ever have been.

[TcomJ]

You are so hung up on the differences in aDPS and the number of buffs DNC gives that you completely ignore that BRD's rDPS - despite Battle Voice being their only raid buff - is STILL HIGHER THAN DNC's. rDPS is the only metric that matters, so you need to drop this obsession you have with aDPS because those numbers are not important.



Bringing back Foe Requiem would be a far larger change compared to giving SCH an Aetherflow dump and SAM a Sen management skill. Those are more quality of life than direct buffs to damage. Bringing back Foe's would be a direct buff to BRD's rDPS, which would mean that the other two physical ranged may have to be adjusted to compensate for any disparity that may occur.

Like I said before, I don't care about the rank Bard is in especially for the total DPS we do. The problem I have is the job that gives the difference between rDPS and aDPS that much suppose to be bard not DNC. In fact, DNC as a dps doesn't even suppose to be in the game if it means destroying other jobs identity.

And you are going to keep shouting oh we should be happy just the way it is because oh look rDPS rank is so high when mostly it comes from well, personal DPS.