Ninja is weak, like very weak.

[Darkstride]

Someone as to be on the bottom, and to be fair, after Ninja have dominated as a locked slot almost since their launch, I am 100% fine with Ninja being on the bottom half of the DPS hierarchy for one expansion.

The problem with this thinking is that Ninja is now considerably more difficult to play properly than any other DPS. It takes a lot of work to maximize DPS, and even then you still fall short. Trick Attack alone doesn't make up for it. If it's going to be at the bottom for personal DPS, then it needs more or better utility. If a heavy-hitter DPS can deal more damage than Trick Attack is able to offer, then there's legitimately no reason to even play Ninja.

[Lastelli]

Someone as to be on the bottom, and to be fair, after Ninja have dominated as a locked slot almost since their launch, I am 100% fine with Ninja being on the bottom half of the DPS hierarchy for one expansion

So you're justifying the current lack of balance becaus of past lack of balance?
Two wrongs don't make a right, you know. You can't have a dps be 10% lower than other jobs competing for the same spot in a party (melee dps in this case, ideally all melee dps should have approximatelly equal rdps). The same can be said about blm and casters of course. Right now, only ranged dps are well balanced unfortunately.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Someone as to be on the bottom, and to be fair, after Ninja have dominated as a locked slot almost since their launch, I am 100% fine with Ninja being on the bottom half of the DPS hierarchy for one expansion.

They aren't even that far behind the top to be 100% honest in terms of rDPS. People are making a hen of a feather here. I can, however, agree that Ninja is, and tbh always were, in a bothersome situation for dungeons, but any class could without a single issue piloted by a below average player could get through dungeons, so I can have oversight with poor dungeon balancing, and NIN will be doomed to be bad in dungeons until something is done about Trick attack as if they are good in dungeons they will be OP in raids.

Ok. There is one thing i dislike about rdps being able to be seen now, its that people think of it like personal dps and therefore think of how balance should be around that. For every utility you have, you should do less dps personally, this is practically universal. But dps utilities, how do you balance those?

Imagine if verraise from a rdm, that whenever it raises someone, it kills two other party members... thats a utility functioning as it should... right?

Trick attack increases a raids dps by 1k to make up for a 2k deficit by taking the ninja? The dps increasing utility functions as it should.... right?

Lets get rid of dps utilities, since ppl want them to simply not work, give ninja some other utilities that dont increase dps, make their ability to do their own dps not so convoluted, and then ninja will be perfectly happy "not being meta" because at least then we wont be a direct hinderance, which is what our problem ACTUALLY is

[Katie_Kitty]

Rdm needs a buff. But you are incorrect about ninja still wanted because of trick. You are taking its utility at face value. The highest value trick has been given has been around 1000. Pdps of ninja is 2k behind the next melee. This means ninjas pdps nullifys trick attack. Also means a "speedrun" loses total raid dps just by bringing them.


If a utility still nets in a dps loss, the utility may as well not exist. Remove it, or give ninja a proper excuse for its dps contribution being as low as it is.

Ppl are trashing nin because it was meta so long. They say "its where it should be now," or "its just not meta now its fine" when in actuality its not even VIABLE. Meta has nothing to do with a majority of the player base, its just what people echo from the "top percentile" "this is best so we should have it"

There will never be a balance. Something will always be meta, just not nin this time, as it cant even perform its main function.

You're wrong to suggest that just because trick doesn't make up for the loss in overall party dps compared to bringing another class that means people won't want it. At the end of the day, trick attack makes other people's parse numbers go up. So yes that means it will always be wanted.

[Fland]

At the end of the day, trick attack makes other people's parse numbers go up.

Not anymore. With rDPS, TA only counts towards NIN's dps.

[Lunavi]

So you're justifying the current lack of balance becaus of past lack of balance?
Two wrongs don't make a right, you know. You can't have a dps be 10% lower than other jobs competing for the same spot in a party (melee dps in this case, ideally all melee dps should have approximatelly equal rdps). The same can be said about blm and casters of course. Right now, only ranged dps are well balanced unfortunately.

I am NOT saying there is a lack of balance anywhere? From numbers to judge NIN is about 10% worse than the top DPS. That is VERY close, so close actually that a very good NIN can outperform any average player of any other job. I am however saying that some jobs has to be worse as no matter how much things are tuned one thing will be objectively worse than the other if things are different, and that it is healthy that a job that has been slot-locked since its release is at that spot right now rather than jobs that has been a meme-job for several expansions.

EDIT to add further replies and avoid double posting:

Ok. There is one thing i dislike about rdps being able to be seen now, its that people think of it like personal dps and therefore think of how balance should be around that. For every utility you have, you should do less dps personally, this is practically universal. But dps utilities, how do you balance those?

Imagine if verraise from a rdm, that whenever it raises someone, it kills two other party members... thats a utility functioning as it should... right?

Trick attack increases a raids dps by 1k to make up for a 2k deficit by taking the ninja? The dps increasing utility functions as it should.... right?

Lets get rid of dps utilities, since ppl want them to simply not work, give ninja some other utilities that dont increase dps, make their ability to do their own dps not so convoluted, and then ninja will be perfectly happy "not being meta" because at least then we wont be a direct hinderance, which is what our problem ACTUALLY is

The "problem" if Ninja has good dungeon DPS with something like trick attack is that they will be overturned in dungeons compared to "selfish" jobs as 8 people enjoying that Trick Attack is better than 4 people enjoying that trick attack, and don't even get me started on how it affects 24-man content where 24 people enjoy that debuff. But yes, Ninja isn't top DPS now and people will almost always prefer MNK and DRG over it, just like people earlier had Ninja as a locked slot while some other jobs barely got into end-game content. That is how it is, some jobs will be better than others, and as I said above, I would rather it change from expansion to expansion which jobs are good and bad instead of, for example, that we 10 expansions down the line still see Ninja as a lower-tier performing DPS. Lower-tier. NIN isn't even the worst DPS in the game as of now.

[soulseeker78]

I am NOT saying there is a lack of balance anywhere? From numbers to judge NIN is about 10% worse than the top DPS. That is VERY close, so close actually that a very good NIN can outperform any average player of any other job. I am however saying that some jobs has to be worse as no matter how much things are tuned one thing will be objectively worse than the other if things are different, and that it is healthy that a job that has been slot-locked since its release is at that spot right now rather than jobs that has been a meme-job for several expansions.

EDIT to add further replies and avoid double posting:


The "problem" if Ninja has good dungeon DPS with something like trick attack is that they will be overturned in dungeons compared to "selfish" jobs as 8 people enjoying that Trick Attack is better than 4 people enjoying that trick attack, and don't even get me started on how it affects 24-man content where 24 people enjoy that debuff. But yes, Ninja isn't top DPS now and people will almost always prefer MNK and DRG over it, just like people earlier had Ninja as a locked slot while some other jobs barely got into end-game content. That is how it is, some jobs will be better than others, and as I said above, I would rather it change from expansion to expansion which jobs are good and bad instead of, for example, that we 10 expansions down the line still see Ninja as a lower-tier performing DPS. Lower-tier. NIN isn't even the worst DPS in the game as of now.

I think you're overvaluing TA. First, as other's have said now, it's rDPS contribution isn't that great any more. It also requires strong group coordination to really shine. Also, as others have said, NIN is the hardest melee class to play optimally currently, by far. The Mudra combos/sequence is too easy to mess up, and severely punishing when done incorrectly.

IMO, NIN needs a bit of a Mudra redesign (less buttons to press or less reliant on stacking mudras), and they need potency buffs, particularly for their AoE's..

[Lunavi]

I think you're overvaluing TA. First, as other's have said now, it's rDPS contribution isn't that great any more. It also requires strong group coordination to really shine. Also, as others have said, NIN is the hardest melee class to play optimally currently, by far. The Mudra combos/sequence is too easy to mess up, and severely punishing when done incorrectly.

IMO, NIN needs a bit of a Mudra redesign (less buttons to press or less reliant on stacking mudras), and they need potency buffs, particularly for their AoE's..

3.0 BLMs can testament that difficulty =/= how good your class is. But yes, I would be fine with those changes, but to say that NIN is really weak which is what this thread implies when it is basically in the bottom middle of the pack is very odd, there are several classes worse than them, and some classes HAS to be the worse than others when there are differences to them.

Also, on the topic of TA, the problem is still that if they are tuned for 4-man content they will do more damage in 8-man content, it might not be much more, but consider this, the difference between top dog DPS and bottom right now is a little bit more than 10% and people cry that NIN is so bad it is silly, it doesn't take much for people to consider a class broken or useless.

[Lastelli]

Also, on the topic of TA, the problem is still that if they are tuned for 4-man content they will do more damage in 8-man content, it might not be much more, but consider this, the difference between top dog DPS and bottom right now is a little bit more than 10% and people cry that NIN is so bad it is silly, it doesn't take much for people to consider a class broken or useless.

A 10% rdps difference between a jobs and other jobs in the same role is huge when battle content is entirely designed around dps checks, my friend. The current state of NIN is one of the worst balance issues the game has ever had, probably surpassing MNK and BLM depressing condition in 3.X. Considering the relative balance that was achieved at the end of Stormblood, it's quite surprising that the dev team made such a mistake.

Anyway, devs just acknowledged NIN issues in the last LL. A rework plus adjustmenta are coming and they are a priority. NIN main rejoice.

[geekgirl101]

RDM too now. :'(