Summoner Early Post-Launch Feedback at level 80

[Taranok]

The problem isn't the layers, it's the layers just aren't working together with the job. But I've already giving plenty of feedback on how to get all this mechanics to mess together in harmony. I'm just saying it just a spell with recast timer. No flashy mechanics needed for it.

Point taken. But if we're adding this, we need a lot of somethings removed in the process or meshed together. Having Egi Assault retrapped as a Odin dropping in the center of the arena and shooting off a Zantetsuken won't fix the issues the class has now, except by making the class thematically more AWESOME than it already is.

So my wishlist of goals:

Short Term:

1. Egi Assault or Energy Drain. Choose one, completely remove the other. OR
2. Egi Assault AND Energy Drain: Merge EA 1 with EA2, rework ruin 4 to be fair and fun as necessary. Either merge ED and ES together and give it a 60s cooldown (rework fester/pf as needed) OR delete both mechanics and tie Aetherflow stacks to trances specifically so you trance to get aetherflow and never concern yourself with it otherwise.
3. DoTs can stay for now, it would be too difficult to augment that many co-dependent mechanics, but increase their duration from 30 to 33 seconds OR reduce Trance cooldown timers to 55 seconds so that it's vastly harder to accidentally clip DoTs because you reapplied T-D a second too early.
4. Delete ruination, either add its damage directly into DoTs or into all of the Ruins. ALTERNATIVELY make ruination benefit Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory so you're not punished for using it during FBT and just limp the class along until it can be reworked.
5. Egis can stay, DP and DB can stay in their current state, just make it, if possible, so that Ifrit-egi can charge the boss with their innate auto attack like Automaton Queen does, as well as making it so DB and DP stay rooted once summoned. Consider merging DP with DWT, or making it so DP and DB function like Automaton Queen does in that it just does its own thing once summoned.
6. Drop devotion to a 2 minute timer, adjust its damage boost accordingly, OR make it so that the effect can be summoned centered on the summoner itself and cast at any time regardless of the presence of an egi.
7. Consider dropping T-D to a 28 second cooldown instead of adjusting ruination so that we apply DoTs exclusively through it (you know, like a bard...kind of).

All of these changes can "reasonably" be done mid-expansion, as it primarily concerns with adjusting timings, changing mechanics that already exist at just a numbers basis, deleting things outright, or adding mechanics that have existed in the past but were disabled. Not all of this list would need to be done, even a handful of it would fix the class a lot as is and we wouldn't need to touch arguably the worst mechanics that make up the core of the class, just make it slightly less frustrating to work with and ease up on the skill floor a bit.

Long term:

1. Remove or alter egis, remove DoTs.
2. Emphasize the trance and primal-based rotation from a very low level.
3. Any DoTs added should function like GNB DoTs in that they're put up on a cooldown where thematically appropriate.
4. More demis!
5. Fixed demis that aren't a pain to work with!
6. Temporary one-shot summons!
7. Basically a ground up rework of the class to focus on demi primals and things that can make the summoner feel more thematically like a summoner, with all mechanics designed from the ground up to actually focus on and fit with this thematic style so the class feels thematic.

Unlike short-term changes, long term changes require substantial redesigns to the class, its rotation, its flow, its very feel at a raw gameplay level and will require a lot of time to implement. As with the short term wishlist, it need not be all of these things, but at the end of the day it would still be a rework of the class to actually focus up the class and make it feel like a summoner. I'm intentionally being vague because I don't have an exact vision of how it should work, only a vision of how it might work, and would rather the devs looked at the feedback from the class and went: "Let's rework the class to make it feel like a summoner" instead of "Oh, the class really likes egis or dots or summons or this or that" and focuses the class in too many directions. Demi-summons are the core of Summoner's thematic identity, and everything should thematically revolve around that.

[Exodus-E]

1. Remove or alter egis, remove DoTs.

I'm completely against removing them, since they're integral to this game's lore.
So "altering" will have to do, I guess.

2. Emphasize the trance and primal-based rotation from a very low level.

I think they're fine the way they are, level-wise.
Maybe post-Lv.60 would do it.

5. Fixed demis that aren't a pain to work with!

On that, we can agree.
They'd simply need to alter Dreadwyrm Trance so it works just like Firebird Trance (ie. temporarily replacing Ruin III + Outburst and integrating Demi-Bahamut into it).

6. Temporary one-shot summons!

I mean...that's more or less how Demi-Primals currently work.
They just need to further emphasize that particular aspect of them.
Like say, using their respective Enkindles immediately on entry/exit (similar to MCH's turret).

7. Basically a ground up rework of the class to focus on demi primals and things that can make the summoner feel more thematically like a summoner, with all mechanics designed from the ground up to actually focus on and fit with this thematic style so the class feels thematic.

And this is the point where I completely disagree with you.
Each FF game has its own "take" on certain jobs and stuff.
Otherwise, Scholar wouldn't get fairies, Dark Knight would be sacrificing its HP for certain attacks (and not being a tank), etc...

[HeulGDarian]

I'm completely against removing them, since they're integral to this game's lore.
So "altering" will have to do, I guess.


I think they're fine the way they are, level-wise.
Maybe post-Lv.60 would do it.


On that, we can agree.
They'd simply need to alter Dreadwyrm Trance so it works just like Firebird Trance (ie. temporarily replacing Ruin III + Outburst and integrating Demi-Bahamut into it).


I mean...that's more or less how Demi-Primals currently work.
They just need to further emphasize that particular aspect of them.
Like say, using their respective Enkindles immediately on entry/exit (similar to MCH's turret).


And this is the point where I completely disagree with you.
Each FF game has its own "take" on certain jobs and stuff.
Otherwise, Scholar wouldn't get fairies, Dark Knight would be sacrificing its HP for certain attacks (and not being a tank), etc...

and samurai would be a tank who throws coins. come on dude you left the best one on etc xD

[Taranok]

I'm completely against removing them, since they're integral to this game's lore.
So "altering" will have to do, I guess.

Lore is a poor excuse to justify keeping a class broken. The Egis can be worked in in different ways without having a pet that constantly drags the design of the class down. Having consistent lore is important. Having a class that feels good to play is more so.

I think they're fine the way they are, level-wise.
Maybe post-Lv.60 would do it.

Having a class that constantly changes its styles where a primary, CORE mechanic of it isn't even acquired until level 60 is not good design. Machinist suffered from this in SB where you couldn't even realistically use heat until 62, and got no real benefit until 64. Getting a core mechanic at 60, 70, and 80 is bad design. 80 is at least semi-justifiable because it's expanding on the mechanic, but 60 for a core class mechanic is not. (Okay, technically 58, but still). Even Black Mage suffers from this both critically (Fire 4, Umbral Hearts) and less critically (Every QoL change post 60 that should be gotten sooner).

I mean...that's more or less how Demi-Primals currently work.
They just need to further emphasize that particular aspect of them.
Like say, using their respective Enkindles immediately on entry/exit (similar to MCH's turret).

By one-shot, I mean it summons, does a single attack, and then leaves.

And this is the point where I completely disagree with you.
Each FF game has its own "take" on certain jobs and stuff.
Otherwise, Scholar wouldn't get fairies, Dark Knight would be sacrificing its HP for certain attacks (and not being a tank), etc...

Nothing about what you said has any bearing on the current summoner or its problems.

Do you want a class that is broken by design just because of lore? Do you want the class to ever live up to its hypothetical potential? Because dragging it down due to the poor design decisions of the past no longer aging well or because of story is a terrible excuse. Summoner as a class design has suffered long enough. It needs to be fixed, and fixed properly. And short of a full rework, it will never be fixed properly. It can have a unique take on the class compared to past iterations, that's fine. But it needs to be a functional, coherent class.

[HeulGDarian]

Lore is a poor excuse to justify keeping a class broken. The Egis can be worked in in different ways without having a pet that constantly drags the design of the class down. Having consistent lore is important. Having a class that feels good to play is more so.



Having a class that constantly changes its styles where a primary, CORE mechanic of it isn't even acquired until level 60 is not good design. Machinist suffered from this in SB where you couldn't even realistically use heat until 62, and got no real benefit until 64. Getting a core mechanic at 60, 70, and 80 is bad design. 80 is at least semi-justifiable because it's expanding on the mechanic, but 60 for a core class mechanic is not. (Okay, technically 58, but still). Even Black Mage suffers from this both critically (Fire 4, Umbral Hearts) and less critically (Every QoL change post 60 that should be gotten sooner).



By one-shot, I mean it summons, does a single attack, and then leaves.



Nothing about what you said has any bearing on the current summoner or its problems.

Do you want a class that is broken by design just because of lore? Do you want the class to ever live up to its hypothetical potential? Because dragging it down due to the poor design decisions of the past no longer aging well or because of story is a terrible excuse. Summoner as a class design has suffered long enough. It needs to be fixed, and fixed properly. And short of a full rework, it will never be fixed properly. It can have a unique take on the class compared to past iterations, that's fine. But it needs to be a functional, coherent class.

1) HE isn't asking to keep the job broken he is saying your i want to rework the class cause this isn't a summoner is UTTER SUBJECTIVE BULLSHIT. the pet doesn't drag the design down youre just so into your BULLSHIT that you can't see how much alike they are to a constant demi if fixed.
2) mch didn't suffer from that mch suffered cause you got punished from building the resource and from having to withhold building the resource mch wasn't a mess cause of 3.0 he was a mess cause of the 4.0 mechanic they added that couldn't be taken back.
3) a summon that does a single attack and then leaves is an egi that doesn't auto attack does an enkindle and then fcks off this isn't satisfying gameplay this is just fester with more animation.
4) Smn isn't broken by his lore . 4.1 summoner worked perfectly his dots worked bahamut felt amazing aetherflow lead up to trance was flexible and maybe the egis would have been fixed by now if you stopped griefing about the parts that were fine and are easily fixable by simple reverting the stupid change.

[HeulGDarian]

HERE LET ME WRITE IT AGAIN

No problem that occurred now existed in 4.1 smn . ITS not smn being tied to arcanist that hurt us it was the changes that occurred this time ALL we have to do is revert the changes . JUST so that once it gets back the flow it lost then we can fix the problem that is the egis . for now they made a good start by giving more of a niche to titan and making them instant and they became a bit more imaginative with garuda . hopefully we will see more on it like an ifrit gap closer but first we need bahamut to become better . suggestions have been said through out the forum so hopefully we will see something in the 5.1 .

[HeulGDarian]

Basically a ground up rework of the class to focus on demi primals and things that can make the summoner feel more thematically like a summoner, with all mechanics designed from the ground up to actually focus on and fit with this thematic style so the class feels thematic.


Unlike short-term changes, long term changes require substantial redesigns to the class, its rotation, its flow, its very feel at a raw gameplay level and will require a lot of time to implement. As with the short term wishlist, it need not be all of these things, but at the end of the day it would still be a rework of the class to actually focus up the class and make it feel like a summoner. I'm intentionally being vague because I don't have an exact vision of how it should work, only a vision of how it might work, and would rather the devs looked at the feedback from the class and went: "Let's rework the class to make it feel like a summoner" instead of "Oh, the class really likes egis or dots or summons or this or that" and focuses the class in too many directions. Demi-summons are the core of Summoner's thematic identity, and everything should thematically revolve around that.

(0)

We don't have to reinvent the wheel just give the 4.1 aetherflow trance link, remove festerruins , give old further ruin , fix the cooldowns/damage numbers , fix the egis and make them rewarding , and when the new demis come make them able to change the dots with their power. If you think about it without the dots we will never be able to get a dot based demi power up.

not just me but multiple people have said its summoner is different from each other . you don't have to alienate half the summoner population if you like how the new demis function all you have to do for more of that is wait. i Don't think you will ever feel un-summoner when you ll have 3 demis ,3 fixed rewarding egis and demi upgraded dots.

Ok i was going to leave it at that but the more i read this part the more angry i got . just when you finally brought out ideas we could discuss upon just as easily you make it hard to be looked as sensible like a great job interview were in the end you signed as BigDx69xX . as i said if you like the demis the devs will keep providing. but you don't care about that you want arcanist to be removed . ill answer it once again the job and arcanist make perfect sense it is not a warlock . every job has a dot it happened that the devs gave us miasma and bio and at start it did work like a warlock . the more the job developed the more summoning actions it learned as it should ,you can see that on the lead up to learning how to summon more summons and picking bahamut. the summoner line is a mage line and like every mage he has more than 1 trick up his sleeve . The core of summoning is arcanima wether you like it or not it has a build up it is completely justified through out not just the smn story but the main one as well and unless they destroy their own storyline including the main villain and their own magic system they won't ever be split apart from one another. So pls if you don't think having a summoner who does things in order to make a summon that matters and instead you want a flashy job that's all about showing , PLS forget summoner . you didn't like summoner you liked a spell and not only that you're trying to forcefully eject out everyone who is invested to this job. whatever summoner you played and loved to death is not this one. we dont have and Don't want to have our job destroyed for your own idealism . Your proposal of rework suits only your needs not summoners.