Anyone know if blocking mitigation has been increased from 20%?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

I don't see how block being capped at 20% is a "glaring issue."

[Typhoria]

Block being capped at 20% brings it in line with the other short cds and if block hadn't scaled before, peoble wouldn't bat an eye at it capping at 20%, because at 20% it's in line with the other short mitigation cds. Can't really have the cd kit of one class get stronger over teh course of an expansion while the others don't.

The Blackest Night has pretty crazy scaling. It gains increased EHP based on gear and health, while other skills effectively lose it. Armor value increases base damage reduction, so the value of the other short cooldowns decreases as gear improves.

Few things to consider about block and Shelltron:

Shelltron is basically a cooldown with 2 charges that starts at 0 and doesn't recharge unless you auto attack something.
With Skill Speed being a low priority and Paladin weapon having 2.24 swing timer, charges won't be gained until after 20s at least.

If we are to assume 2200 block rate means 20% block chance (since 2200 block strength is 20% reduction), 1/5th of the time a Paladin will take 1/5th damage, which would roughly be equal to 4% passive mitigation. Using Shelltron nullifies that passive mitigation for the duration since there is no "critical block" mechanic. Passage of Arms also negates it, and doesn't stack with Shelltron, since the 15% damage reduction component is a cone behind you, similar to how Divine Veil doesn't benefit the caster.

Block doesn't work against critical hits.

[Absimiliard]

The Blackest Night has pretty crazy scaling. It gains increased EHP based on gear and health, while other skills effectively lose it. Armor value increases base damage reduction, so the value of the other short cooldowns decreases as gear improves.

TBN will also become more of a detriment to damage output as the expansion wears on, it appears. It has already gotten to the point that people are eating tankbusters using TBN alone and still not managing to break the shield.

[Kyni]

The Blackest Night has pretty crazy scaling. It gains increased EHP based on gear and health, while other skills effectively lose it. Armor value increases base damage reduction, so the value of the other short cooldowns decreases as gear improves.

If we are to assume 2200 block rate means 20% block chance (since 2200 block strength is 20% reduction), 1/5th of the time a Paladin will take 1/5th damage, which would roughly be equal to 4% passive mitigation. Using Shelltron nullifies that passive mitigation for the duration since there is no "critical block" mechanic. Passage of Arms also negates it, and doesn't stack with Shelltron, since the 15% damage reduction component is a cone behind you, similar to how Divine Veil doesn't benefit the caster.

Block doesn't work against critical hits.[/QUOTE]

TBN scales with tank health, while every other cd scales with dmg taken. If you look at the percentage increase on effective health that TBN provides it's the same as Sheltron and Raw Intuition, and it's always going to be the same. Or in basic terms things that kill you when you only use sheltron/raw intuition are going to kill you if you only use TBN. Obviously only when wearing the same gear.

Shelltron is basically a cooldown with 2 charges that starts at 0 and doesn't recharge unless you auto attack something.
With Skill Speed being a low priority and Paladin weapon having 2.24 swing timer, charges won't be gained until after 20s at least.

First, skill speed doesn't affect auto attack speed only, so the weapon speed is what you get. But considering that Raw intuition and Heart of Stone have a cd of 25 seconds, being able to only use Sheltron every 22 seconds seems fine to me. That you have to build it up initially and that downtime hurts it's uptime is a disadvantage, but in exchange you get the ability to save gauge up 100 so you can save at least one use.

If we are to assume 2200 block rate means 20% block chance (since 2200 block strength is 20% reduction), 1/5th of the time a Paladin will take 1/5th damage, which would roughly be equal to 4% passive mitigation. Using Shelltron nullifies that passive mitigation for the duration since there is no "critical block" mechanic. Passage of Arms also negates it, and doesn't stack with Shelltron, since the 15% damage reduction component is a cone behind you, similar to how Divine Veil doesn't benefit the caster.

Sou you are complaining that you don't have your freebie passive mitigation, that the other tanks don't have, while sheltron is running? Divine veil is the strongest raid cd ( except 3 cooldown Shake) and Passage still provides you with 100% block aka 20% dmg reduction to the tank. Yes you can't stack it with Sheltron, but that's really not a big deal.

Block doesn't work against critical hits.

Tankbusters have either 0% crit chance or 100% crit chance. I don't think we will see one of the later again now that awareness is gone.

And here is the thing, with the exception of your TBN argument nothing you said had anything to do with the question, if block strength should scale or not. There is one big reason why block strength should not increase with gear. Just think about block during the last expansion: at 70 it started at 22% (can't fully remember at how much exactly) and ended at 30%, so sheltron went from being slightly stronger than rampart to being on par with Shadow wall/ Vengeance. ShB brought the cd kits of the tanks closer together, every tank has a short cd , rampart, an invul. and a 3 min 30% cd. every tank except PLD also has a fluff cooldown, PLD has an additional raid cd ( and cover) instead and you could consider PoA as his fluff cd, but that would be stretching it.

Now just consider PLDs short cd moving in strength from around rampart ( where everybody else's is) to around the 3 min cd in the end. I hope i don't have to explain how this is kinda awkward to balance around.

[Typhoria]

TBN scales with tank health, while every other cd scales with dmg taken. If you look at the percentage increase on effective health that TBN provides it's the same as Sheltron and Raw Intuition, and it's always going to be the same. Or in basic terms things that kill you when you only use sheltron/raw intuition are going to kill you if you only use TBN. Obviously only when wearing the same gear.

Its not though unless you ignore the damage reduction from armor/magic resist. The more armor/magic resist you have, the lower the EHP value of other % damage reductions due to multiplicative reduction. TBN double dips in EHP gain due to both health and armor/magic resist, while the EPH of every other cooldown is dependent on health.

[Videra]

It was not. And to be honest, Block SHOULD be very strong. I mean, we're Paladins dude. We're the only Tanks that use an actual shield. Shouldn't our class have the best defensive capabilities since that's always kind of been one of the main themes of the job?

Ugh, I love 5.0 PLD, I really do. My only gripe is our defenses. They need to be brought up.

Paladin has never had the strongest defensive kit, except in 2.0. After the patch that fixed Warrior, this has never been the case. It will sadly continue to not be the case.

[Stormbrand]

PLD having the weakest personal cd kit is very likely working as intended, they basicly trade their fluff cd ( ToB, DM, Camo) for an additional raid utility cd. They aren't even really behind, Camo is relaitsly only 10% fpr TB , DM doens't even work on anything not magic. Only ToB could be considered to be a bit stronger as the other fluff cds, but having the best personal cd kit is the advantage that a warrior brings over the other tanks.

Block being capped at 20% brings it in line with the other short cds and if block hadn't scaled before, peoble wouldn't bat an eye at it capping at 20%, because at 20% it's in line with the other short mitigation cds. Can't really have the cd kit of one class get stronger over teh course of an expansion while the others don't.

Let me guess Divine Veil is working as intended too? so is cover? oh and Passage of Arms as well then. Oh maybe clemency as well. What do they all have in common? PLD loses in every scenario. You either get no shield, Lose gauge for some niche trash ability, lose GCD and Lose some more GCD, something no other tank has to deal with. Spare me the working as intended Bullshit, Sheltron is only stronger than HoS but thats not saying much since HoS will most likely get buffed anyways or can be paired with an additional mitigation such as camo which PLD doesn't get anyways. Getting crit during a sheltron, wondering whether your sheltron was even worth the gauge because you could have passively blocked it anyways. But its okay PLD has passive blocking so they must be OP as fck and need to be nerfed to oblivion. Only tank class with absolutely 0 self healing via Weapon skills or ability. If i want to heal I need to throw my damage in the toilet. A warrior can RI/Nascent for Fluff and get parries on boss autos, sheltron does nothing to crit autos which could make the entire duration feel lack luster or useless. The only thing a PLD has that is actually powerful is intervention at the cost of defensive CD but only really powerful during shared busters which most of the time get cheesed by invulns anyways.

If block must remain at 20% then something of value must be gained. As it stands Sheltron isn't strong enough to justify denying PLD an extra CD for mitigation.

[TheForce]

Wanted to reply to one thing you said in particular: you're giving Divine Veil way too much credit. You know that it has zero effect on the PLD himself/herself right? Of the 4 tanks, PLD is the only one whose raidwide cd doesn't help them as well. That's pretty bad, and the ~4% passive mitigation from block does not make up for this honestly.

We dl also have PoA, and once again, it doesn't really give any meaningful effect to the PLD using it since all it does is guarantee a block for us, but we already have sheltron to do that for us; on top of that, if we were going to block the attack anyway, PoA would have literally had no effect on us.

Honestly, my only suggestion for PLD going forward, would be to stop making us so dependant on block for our mitigation and add other types of defensive buffs for us. Or, make block much more meaningful.
On a side note, it just makes absolutely no sense to me why SE would buff the heck out of TBN's defenses (a defensive CD that's MEANT to break) but butcher PLD's defenses (the class that's always been known as the Bulwark amongst the others).

[TheForce]

PLD having the weakest personal cd kit is very likely working as intended, they basicly trade their fluff cd ( ToB, DM, Camo) for an additional raid utility cd. They aren't even really behind, Camo is relaitsly only 10% fpr TB , DM doens't even work on anything not magic. Only ToB could be considered to be a bit stronger as the other fluff cds, but having the best personal cd kit is the advantage that a warrior brings over the other tanks.

Block being capped at 20% brings it in line with the other short cds and if block hadn't scaled before, peoble wouldn't bat an eye at it capping at 20%, because at 20% it's in line with the other short mitigation cds. Can't really have the cd kit of one class get stronger over teh course of an expansion while the others don't.

Also, you need to realize, the CAP for block is 20%. Most PLDs will most likely be blocking for a lower % most of the time since not everybody will be geared to the teeth. Also, there's level sync which hurts it too. I just did Susano and my block was at 15% due to level sync...that's just insulting.
Now, if Block started at 20% and went back to 30%. That'd be fine.

Also, it bothers me how the devs nerfed block and parry like they were one in the same. One is just some extra mitigation that you're never really expecting; you can just see it as the occasional treat. Whereas the other is literally the main source of the class's mitigation, it's essential to how the class stays alive and prevents damage.. And to make it worse, SE decided to nerf block MORE than parry. Like, how does that even make sense? It honestly feels like they were just trying to screw PLDs over just for the hell of it (assuming that they're leaving block at 20%).

And wha? You do realize that's always been the case for PLD, right? Overtime, their block strength has always gone up as better shields were brought into the game.

[Kyni]

Its not though unless you ignore the damage reduction from armor/magic resist. The more armor/magic resist you have, the lower the EHP value of other % damage reductions due to multiplicative reduction. TBN double dips in EHP gain due to both health and armor/magic resist, while the EPH of every other cooldown is dependent on health.

Effective health is just a measurement for how much dmg can you take without healing or lucky dodges or the like. TBN increases this number by a factor of 1.25, when used, Sheltron does too. Defence (and Tank mastery) also just provide another factor for the multiplication. The only thing currently in the game that forces you to treat TBN differently than Sheltron ( or rather any percentage based mitigation) are absorb shields and those have no interaction with TBN, but do profit from stuff like Sheltron ( because the 20% through block works for them too).

In addition to that, because all tanks have the same passive always on mitigation, you can make your life easier by, in fact just ignoring those and just taking the non cd mitigated attacks of bosses. You would have to math in those to gain the completely unmitigated attack values and would then just remove them again when actually comparing. That's just useless busywork.

Let me guess Divine Veil is working as intended too?

so is cover? oh and Passage of Arms as well then. Oh maybe clemency as well. What do they all have in common? PLD loses in every scenario. You either get no shield, Lose gauge for some niche trash ability, lose GCD and Lose some more GCD, something no other tank has to deal with. Spare me the working as intended Bullshit, Sheltron is only stronger than HoS but thats not saying much since HoS will most likely get buffed anyways or can be paired with an additional mitigation such as camo which PLD doesn't get anyways.[/QUOTE]

Calling the best mitigation ability for non tank targets, a nice trash ability is a bit underselling cover. Considering that the other tanks don't even have something that really compares. Closest thing would be TBN, but even that's stretching it.

The trigger condition for DV and the channelling for PoA is not that great I agree. They are still the 2 strongest raid wide mitigation cooldowns of the tanks. The no self shield on DV has practical no impact on anything, if there is raid wide dmg(for what these skills are designed for) that kills you, a tank, without the 13k shield, the only one standing would be the other tank. The same applies for PoA and in this case you can even sue it for personal use, if you want to conserve gauge, so I think changing it to also give you the 15% dmg reduction instead of the guaranteed block would be more of a nerf than a buff under most conditions. If you really need extra mitigation have the other tank throw his ot help cd on you.

In case of clemency you really wont like my answer. Clemency is borderline broken and overpowered. Being able to throw out a heal, that is on par if not stronger than a lot of Healer spells and that heals you for a non trivial portion of the amount healed too, without it having a cooldown attached to it is very strong in progression. It's comparable, although it is notable less useful, to RDM ability to instant ress and I think you know how that works out balance wise for those. Yes it's not very useful in speed kill scenarios, but not everything is about those. Besides even then, if you have a WHM who can use one more glare instead of having to use cure 2, it's a very small rdps gain. The last thing is arguable a bit problematic in and off itself.

It's true that the other tanks don't have to deal with these specific problems, but they have problems of their own. Onslaught, a gap closer, being a dps loss and through this the only gap closer that only gets used as a gap closer, TBN having to break it being a 500 potency loss and on GNB it's really awkward to use def cds during your burst window, because of the amount of double weaving you have to do to not unsyc your cooldowns. And yes these aren't big problems, but neither are the ones you mentioned.

Getting crit during a sheltron, wondering whether your sheltron was even worth the gauge because you could have passively blocked it anyways. But its okay PLD has passive blocking so they must be OP as fck and need to be nerfed to oblivion. Only tank class with absolutely 0 self healing via Weapon skills or ability. If i want to heal I need to throw my damage in the toilet. A warrior can RI/Nascent for Fluff and get parries on boss autos, sheltron does nothing to crit autos which could make the entire duration feel lack luster or useless. The only thing a PLD has that is actually powerful is intervention at the cost of defensive CD but only really powerful during shared busters which most of the time get cheesed by invulns anyways.

I don't think passiv block makes PLDs op. I don't even think PLD is op at all, I think he is perfectly fine as it is and needs neither to be nerfed or buffed. Personally think passive block doesn't do much at all, neither do those minor heals on gcd abilities of the other tanks. Most of the outcome of passive block or the minor auto self heal I going to land in overheal anyway and it's also not going to keep you alive when things go bad in any non trivial content. On topic of shared tankbusters, every tank buster in E1S and E2S is shared, can't invul them all.^^

If block must remain at 20% then something of value must be gained. As it stands Sheltron isn't strong enough to justify denying PLD an extra CD for mitigation.

No Sheltrons strength doesn't justify PLD having one less personal cooldown. PLD having an extra raid CD does and as long as PLDs weaker personal mitigation doesn't become a huge problem, and it currently isn't, no change or scaling block is needed. To be fully honest tank balance overall is really good now and they should just leave it alone, they are more likely to mess it up than to improve it, so messing with it doesn't really seem worth the risk.

Also, you need to realize, the CAP for block is 20%. Most PLDs will most likely be blocking for a lower % most of the time since not everybody will be geared to the teeth. Also, there's level sync which hurts it too. I just did Susano and my block was at 15% due to level sync...that's just insulting.
Now, if Block started at 20% and went back to 30%. That'd be fine.

Also, it bothers me how the devs nerfed block and parry like they were one in the same. One is just some extra mitigation that you're never really expecting; you can just see it as the occasional treat. Whereas the other is literally the main source of the class's mitigation, it's essential to how the class stays alive and prevents damage.. And to make it worse, SE decided to nerf block MORE than parry. Like, how does that even make sense? It honestly feels like they were just trying to screw PLDs over just for the hell of it (assuming that they're leaving block at 20%).

And wha? You do realize that's always been the case for PLD, right? Overtime, their block strength has always gone up as better shields were brought into the game.

I do aggree hvaing block still sclae during lvling, or when downsynced, when the kit is clearly designed around 20% block strength, is kinda bad. Block strengh should be 20% at all lvls. But considering it's lvling and outdated content it's not really a big problem. Fun fact i think they nerfed parry strength because at 20% it would have been stronger than block during lvling/syncded, which would have been really awkward considering block ha a higher priority than parry. They nerfed Block down to 20% so that Sheltron is in line with the comparable coodlowns of teh other tanks, the yalso changed it from 1 hit blocked to all attacks for a duration for the same reason, but i don't see anyone having a problem with that.