No DRK changes?

[Sancho_Nyanta]

Thank you Ashwich! I was wondering if there were people who could see something that should be so obvious.

[ADVSS]

How is TBN not as good a damage reduction cd in trash pulls? It's still 30K of your health. Take Shelltron for example. lets just say you block 20%, in order for it to mitigate 30K of your health, you'd have to have otherwise taken 150K HP worth of damage in the 5 seconds duration. Nothing hits that hard. that's 2 GCDs. DRK is the least squishy tank in wall-to-wall pulls currently.

SB DRK puts healers out of jobs. It had to be changed.

Well. Steel Cyclone existed in SB as well, seemed to be pretty similarly(if not more) effective in SB as AD spam. Come to think of it, even WAR got hit hard too, you're absolutely right, it had to go-I mean, its not like PLD can now machine gun clemency, like WAR could spam SS, or DRK spam AD back then, right? But TBN does have a super short cooldown, unlike Shelltrons build up. I think I would trade TBN 15 seconds to an agreed 30s(no MP/dps voucher) on ST(since we're comparing the two), and allow us to machine gun 4 or 5 AD(delirium window?). Seems like a fair trade off to me(more fair if AD had a flat cure potency regardless of single target or aoe, but I'll take what I can get at this point). Personally, TBN has become the 'Trick Attack' of tank cd, and so DRK gets to be the 'NIN' of tanks. I dont really dig this. Thats literally whats going on here. "DRK has TBN, so everything about it is fine".

[ashwich]

Well. Steel Cyclone existed in SB as well, seemed to be pretty similarly(if not more) effective in SB. Come to think of it, even WAR got hit hard too, you're absolutely right, it had to go-I mean, its not like PLD can now machine gun clemency, like WAR could spam SS, or DRK spam AD , right? But TBN does have a super short cooldown, unlike Shelltrons build up. I think I would trade TBN 15 seconds to an agreed 30s on ST, and allow us to machine gun 4 or 5 AD(delirium window?). Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Paladins have to trade damage for healing, clemency is on the GCD and doesn't do damage like AD. Realistically speaking nobody does that anyway. It messes up healers' pacing and as a healer I would much rather they do damage to kill the things quicker and let me worry about when they need a heal and when they don't.

But really... you want to trade oGCD damage mitigation for spammable GCD heals?

[Giubba]

How is TBN not as good a damage reduction cd in trash pulls? It's still 30K of your health. Take Shelltron for example. lets just say you block 20%, in order for it to mitigate 30K of your health, you'd have to have otherwise taken 150K HP worth of damage in the 5 seconds duration. Nothing hits that hard. that's 2 GCDs. DRK is the least squishy tank in wall-to-wall pulls currently.

SB DRK puts healers out of jobs. It had to be changed.

Because it last a fraction of time of rampart and shadow wall and it still have enough CD to generate hole where you haven't any form of mitigation. It's sustain not burst that's useful in trash pulls

[ashwich]

Because it last a fraction of time of rampart and shadow wall and it still have enough CD to generate hole where you haven't any form of mitigation. It's sustain not burst that's useful in trash pulls

The illusion of more mitigation in that case. The TBN window will provide your healer breathing room they don't otherwise have. I really don't think it's so logically (edit: AND mathematically) difficult to understand how strong TBN is.

[ADVSS]

Paladins have to trade damage for healing, clemency is on the GCD and doesn't do damage like AD. Realistically speaking nobody does that anyway. It messes up healers' pacing and as a healer I would much rather they do damage to kill the things quicker and let me worry about when they need a heal and when they don't.

But really... you want to trade oGCD damage mitigation for spammable GCD heals?

In this case, yeah. No DRK is spamming TBN every 15 seconds, its a hypothetical that simply looks gorgeous on paper, but just doesnt happen in reality. As stated before, great on tank busters, paper thin in large groups of mobs, and it consumes a third of your resources(and puts a "500 pot VOUCHER" , not 3000mp back)if popped. Without BW youre not gonna gen that MP nearly high enough to ride a big pull on TBN, ever- its just not going to happen-even if you "could" thats 10-13s out of 15 recast that its not available in large pulls after theyre done shredding it in the first auto-attack cluster. So yeah its a big shield, but I think its a bit more overrated than it really is. It has drawbacks, that dont really even need to be there, to be honest, and its simply not fair that it has damage tied to it. "just Bene it" "But its got TBN its fine"

[ashwich]

In this case, yeah. No DRK is spamming TBN every 15 seconds, its a hypothetical that simply looks gorgeous on paper, but just doesnt happen in reality. As stated before, great on tank busters, paper thin in large groups of mobs, and it consumes a third of your resources(and puts a "500 pot VOUCHER" , not 3000mp back)if popped.

well are we talking bosses or trash? I thought the discussion is about dungeon trash in a wall-to-wall scenario. In that scenario you absolutely spam TBN every 15 seconds. It looks gorgeous on paper and in practice. Raid boss TBN usage is a different discussion.

Without BW youre not gonna gen that MP nearly high enough to ride a big pull on TBN, ever-

...what...

its just not going to happen-even if you "could" thats 10-13s out of 15 recast that its not available in large pulls after theyre done shredding it in the first auto-attack cluster. So yeah its a big shield, but I think its a bit more overrated than it really is.

Exactly what about 30K damage worth of shield is overrated? is Adlo overrated in a big pull?

It has drawbacks, that dont really even need to be there, to be honest, and its simply not fair that it has damage tied to it. "just Bene it" "But its got TBN its fine"

So this is where you ended up. A totally different subject. My comments were regarding value of TBN in dungeon trash pulls. Not Living Dead. I personally think Living Dead needs fix, but that's a separate issue.

[ADVSS]

well are we talking bosses or trash? I thought the discussion is about dungeon trash in a wall-to-wall scenario. In that scenario you absolutely spam TBN every 15 seconds. It looks gorgeous on paper and in practice. Raid boss TBN usage is a different discussion.

youd be oomp after the third tbn. You might get 6s of shield in that hypothetical.It is overated to me, if thats supposed to justify the rest of DRK kit. Since now I have to clarify DRK changes, this entire thread.

...what...

already been answered. several times

Exactly what about 30K damage worth of shield is overrated? is Adlo overrated in a big pull?

It certainly would be if it was Sch biggest heal- and that its other heals were half potency(or only healed magic damage) because, "its a big shield." Also, how long is adlo's shield duration? Not that itd last that long in a big pull anyway[forget even bringing it to rules that apply to TBN lets just move on from this comparison). Now that we're now comparing TBN to ADLO...instead of shelltron...or any other tanks kit.

So this is where you ended up. A totally different subject. My comments were regarding value of TBN in dungeon trash pulls. Not Living Dead. I personally think Living Dead needs fix, but that's a separate issue.

The subject is "No DRK changes?" Sorry if I'm reviewing DRK as a whole, along with "changes", the subject hasnt changed at all this entire thread-
last part of the convo was a comparison of TBN to Shelltron, now it gets turned into how a free/not free 30k shield is so great, and im saying it doesnt justify the rest of the kit, or how its tied to damage.Therefore,in other words - itssssssssssss - overrated Some argued that the longer duration of things like shelltron(dont forget the shields passive mit.) are better for their sustained duration, over a shield that doesnt even last its maximum duration.

TBN is a good shield. But it doesnt justify its ties to damage. The cooldown is short, great. DOES IT NEED TO BE THE WAY IT IS? Hell no. As I've said multiple times, no it really doesnt, especially if its the sole reason DRK gets a gimped kit, as other people have stated.
So what if its a 30k shield that has to pop in 6 seconds(or its a dps loss). If it wasnt tied to the mp, it would have a crap ton more utility in a crap ton of situations. As it stands, I call it overrated in comparison - I will even call it unfair. A gimped kit, over 1 ability. That includes - get ready for it - Dark Mind, LD, and anything else gimp in DRK kit over one (1)skill. That skill, highly overrated to me. Again DRK has this really great TBN. Tell me what it can do better than the other tanks. What makes it stand out. Go ahead. Cause i bet it starts with a "T" and also ends with a "t" - and im just going to reply with that O word.

[ashwich]

.

I'm aware what the name of the thread is. I made a comment regarding the value of TBN in large pulls, and you responded to this comment I made about TBN usage in large pulls. Nowhere in said comment I said anything about "just bene it" or DRK fine because TBN.

I did compare TBN to the other tanks' kits, I suppose you elected to not read it, that's fine but you can't say I didn't.

running out of mp... after 3rd TBN? what DRK have you been running dungeon with? IF you don't pop BW and Delirium you still won't run out of mp just from all the aoe combo spamming.

[Giubba]

The illusion of more mitigation in that case. The TBN window will provide your healer breathing room they don't otherwise have. I really don't think it's so logically (edit: AND mathematically) difficult to understand how strong TBN is.

I am sorry but the reality of the game works differently than the wonderland where DRK is the best tank of the game with the best ability ever. If you pull 3-4 group of mobs TBN breaks in 2-3 second 4 tops with a CD of 15 second to face that can shift from 13 to 11 seconds and if you burned out rampart and shadow wall because the dps is not good you face a window of time big enough for things going south really quickly.

Instead hearth of stone for example give you a steady damage reduction for the same amount of time and of course it has a longer cooldown because it would be too strong otherwise