No DRK changes?

[ExLegen]

TBN is a 30ksh shield, that is really good against heavy hiting attacks.

But its not near as good as a dmg reduction cd, when you are getting beaten by 6-10 mobs during 20+ seconds.

In trash dungeon pulls, Dark Mind is such a useless skill, and TBN pops so fast, that you find yourself in trouble if enemies arent low enough after rampart, shadow wall or arms lenght.
Thats specially sad if you consider how DRK could deal beautifully with big pulls in SB.

Edit: also, boring and lazy skills like living shadow, new delirium and new blood weapon just makes DRK way less interesting.

[ashwich]

How is TBN not as good a damage reduction cd in trash pulls? It's still 30K of your health. Take Shelltron for example. lets just say you block 20%, in order for it to mitigate 30K of your health, you'd have to have otherwise taken 150K HP worth of damage in the 5 seconds duration. Nothing hits that hard. that's 2 GCDs. DRK is the least squishy tank in wall-to-wall pulls currently.

SB DRK puts healers out of jobs. It had to be changed.

[ADVSS]

How is TBN not as good a damage reduction cd in trash pulls? It's still 30K of your health. Take Shelltron for example. lets just say you block 20%, in order for it to mitigate 30K of your health, you'd have to have otherwise taken 150K HP worth of damage in the 5 seconds duration. Nothing hits that hard. that's 2 GCDs. DRK is the least squishy tank in wall-to-wall pulls currently.

SB DRK puts healers out of jobs. It had to be changed.

Well. Steel Cyclone existed in SB as well, seemed to be pretty similarly(if not more) effective in SB as AD spam. Come to think of it, even WAR got hit hard too, you're absolutely right, it had to go-I mean, its not like PLD can now machine gun clemency, like WAR could spam SS, or DRK spam AD back then, right? But TBN does have a super short cooldown, unlike Shelltrons build up. I think I would trade TBN 15 seconds to an agreed 30s(no MP/dps voucher) on ST(since we're comparing the two), and allow us to machine gun 4 or 5 AD(delirium window?). Seems like a fair trade off to me(more fair if AD had a flat cure potency regardless of single target or aoe, but I'll take what I can get at this point). Personally, TBN has become the 'Trick Attack' of tank cd, and so DRK gets to be the 'NIN' of tanks. I dont really dig this. Thats literally whats going on here. "DRK has TBN, so everything about it is fine".

[ashwich]

Well. Steel Cyclone existed in SB as well, seemed to be pretty similarly(if not more) effective in SB. Come to think of it, even WAR got hit hard too, you're absolutely right, it had to go-I mean, its not like PLD can now machine gun clemency, like WAR could spam SS, or DRK spam AD , right? But TBN does have a super short cooldown, unlike Shelltrons build up. I think I would trade TBN 15 seconds to an agreed 30s on ST, and allow us to machine gun 4 or 5 AD(delirium window?). Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Paladins have to trade damage for healing, clemency is on the GCD and doesn't do damage like AD. Realistically speaking nobody does that anyway. It messes up healers' pacing and as a healer I would much rather they do damage to kill the things quicker and let me worry about when they need a heal and when they don't.

But really... you want to trade oGCD damage mitigation for spammable GCD heals?

[ADVSS]

Paladins have to trade damage for healing, clemency is on the GCD and doesn't do damage like AD. Realistically speaking nobody does that anyway. It messes up healers' pacing and as a healer I would much rather they do damage to kill the things quicker and let me worry about when they need a heal and when they don't.

But really... you want to trade oGCD damage mitigation for spammable GCD heals?

In this case, yeah. No DRK is spamming TBN every 15 seconds, its a hypothetical that simply looks gorgeous on paper, but just doesnt happen in reality. As stated before, great on tank busters, paper thin in large groups of mobs, and it consumes a third of your resources(and puts a "500 pot VOUCHER" , not 3000mp back)if popped. Without BW youre not gonna gen that MP nearly high enough to ride a big pull on TBN, ever- its just not going to happen-even if you "could" thats 10-13s out of 15 recast that its not available in large pulls after theyre done shredding it in the first auto-attack cluster. So yeah its a big shield, but I think its a bit more overrated than it really is. It has drawbacks, that dont really even need to be there, to be honest, and its simply not fair that it has damage tied to it. "just Bene it" "But its got TBN its fine"

[ashwich]

In this case, yeah. No DRK is spamming TBN every 15 seconds, its a hypothetical that simply looks gorgeous on paper, but just doesnt happen in reality. As stated before, great on tank busters, paper thin in large groups of mobs, and it consumes a third of your resources(and puts a "500 pot VOUCHER" , not 3000mp back)if popped.

well are we talking bosses or trash? I thought the discussion is about dungeon trash in a wall-to-wall scenario. In that scenario you absolutely spam TBN every 15 seconds. It looks gorgeous on paper and in practice. Raid boss TBN usage is a different discussion.

Without BW youre not gonna gen that MP nearly high enough to ride a big pull on TBN, ever-

...what...

its just not going to happen-even if you "could" thats 10-13s out of 15 recast that its not available in large pulls after theyre done shredding it in the first auto-attack cluster. So yeah its a big shield, but I think its a bit more overrated than it really is.

Exactly what about 30K damage worth of shield is overrated? is Adlo overrated in a big pull?

It has drawbacks, that dont really even need to be there, to be honest, and its simply not fair that it has damage tied to it. "just Bene it" "But its got TBN its fine"

So this is where you ended up. A totally different subject. My comments were regarding value of TBN in dungeon trash pulls. Not Living Dead. I personally think Living Dead needs fix, but that's a separate issue.

[kazzel120]

TBN being the only tank move tied to your DPS resource is the issue. No other tank's mitigation eats their dps. Every TBN used is a prayer for it to pop or you lose DPS.
Next issue being the fact that due to TBN's existence devs don't give DRK another mitigation skill. But in a wall to wall BIG pull that tbn is gone in about 1.5seconds and then the other 13.5 seconds ur eating sooo much damage. While another tank has more cd to pop that will mitigate more over it's time period being active. Making dark mind mitigate BOTH phys and magic would fix this for me. Stop gimping my tank cuz of one skill that's really only great for tank busters or big but not TOO big pulls. Either that or shorten the cd on abyssal so I can get a few uses of it in such pulls.
And living dead please change it. I like the whole oh im dead but still walking thing. But make it like 50% heals then instead so I don't need a beni. Seeing it tick down and healers than aren't WHM don't even wanna attempt it anymore! In the space of 10s how is my astro meant to heal 110k+ hp say if both their insta heals are gone? The heals are about 20k each now and 30k if crit and it's rubbish to be reliant on crit heals or all oGCD heals being up to survive my "Invuln"
And for last, can we actually go back to being our own distinct feeling class? I hate this fell cleave rip off nonsense, they could have changed dark arts an given us our own good feeling rotation but they got lazy with the POSTER BOY CLASS and decided to jus toss us a fell cleave window that's worse than the original.

Except if you're only using it for tank busters its intended use or for large pulls it breaks in a second and refunds the cost with dark arts so you lose nothing but gain a 35k hp buffer for hard hitting moves.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

Thank you Ashwich! I was wondering if there were people who could see something that should be so obvious.

[Giubba]

How is TBN not as good a damage reduction cd in trash pulls? It's still 30K of your health. Take Shelltron for example. lets just say you block 20%, in order for it to mitigate 30K of your health, you'd have to have otherwise taken 150K HP worth of damage in the 5 seconds duration. Nothing hits that hard. that's 2 GCDs. DRK is the least squishy tank in wall-to-wall pulls currently.

SB DRK puts healers out of jobs. It had to be changed.

Because it last a fraction of time of rampart and shadow wall and it still have enough CD to generate hole where you haven't any form of mitigation. It's sustain not burst that's useful in trash pulls

[ashwich]

Because it last a fraction of time of rampart and shadow wall and it still have enough CD to generate hole where you haven't any form of mitigation. It's sustain not burst that's useful in trash pulls

The illusion of more mitigation in that case. The TBN window will provide your healer breathing room they don't otherwise have. I really don't think it's so logically (edit: AND mathematically) difficult to understand how strong TBN is.