5.05 "Balance" - Samurai and Ninja

[Umsche]

So, by these people's logic about Monk being more complex than SAM therefore it should do more dps, I guess NIN should be top dps to keep people playing and BLM should be nerfed to the ground. Make it happen people.

In a heavy mechanics fight, BLM is harder to play than any melee dps.

[Drayos]

In a heavy mechanics fight, BLM is harder to play than any melee dps.

No, it’s harder to optimise.

BLM isn’t hard, it’s the raid knowledge required to maximise it that is difficult.

Ninja is beyond the threshold which should be considered healthy difficulty wise. The job is stupidly layed out currently.

You have to be beyond good to optimise those openers and stuff on a live mechanic heavy fight.

[Umsche]

No, it’s harder to optimise.

BLM isn’t hard, it’s the raid knowledge required to maximise it that is difficult.

Ninja is beyond the threshold which should be considered healthy difficulty wise. The job is stupidly layed out currently.

You have to be beyond good to optimise those openers and stuff on a live mechanic heavy fight.

Indeed, you explained it better.

[Mitholas]

I spit out my coffee when you said no positional needed on sam. We are punished HEAVILY more so than Monks if we don't use ours. I'm not sure you understand sam very well.

I would say SAM & DRG would be punished heavily for hitting out of positions, but definitely not as heavy as MNK since 80% of MNK's skills require position and DRG & SAM only have about 20~30% of their skills need positioning.

[Wavaryen]

I would say SAM & DRG would be punished heavily for hitting out of positions, but definitely not as heavy as MNK since 80% of MNK's skills require position and DRG & SAM only have about 20~30% of their skills need positioning.

The math says we lose a ton more pot on our skills, yes monks have more skills they got to use, but or punishment for not doing it is huge.

[Quor]

I would say SAM & DRG would be punished heavily for hitting out of positions, but definitely not as heavy as MNK since 80% of MNK's skills require position and DRG & SAM only have about 20~30% of their skills need positioning.

With the new Earth's Reply positionals on a MNK are a non-issue. You can pop TN at the start of the fight and hit RoE when you know raid damage is coming. Let's say the first raid damage hits at the 8s mark, so you get 8s of TN, then 2s where TN and ER overlap. Then you get 28s after that of ER granting you omni-positional status for a total of 38s so far. Then you hit your second TN charge which will give you another 10s for a total of 48s, by which time your first TN charge has cooled down and you can hit it again for a total of 58s of consecutive omni-positionals. Nearly a full minute where MNK just doesn't give a damn about positionals. And 10s after that last charge of TN wears off, RoE is ready to be used again.

Put another way, out of every 180s (3 minute) window of time, MNK can spend 90s of it under Earth's Reply and (worst case scenario) an additional 40s of it under True North, for a total of 130s of omni-positional out of 180s. Literally more than 2/3 of the time MNK can flat out ignore positional requirements thanks to this new RoE change.

[Vendalwind]

snip

Again you really fail at understanding what context is. Just because you brought up potency doesn't mean the discussion is somehow locked into only potency. and if that were the case it would be an unfair way to discuss balance at all.
It is not like comparing SAM rdps and NIN rdps. you look at the whole picture, not a single pixel ever to evaluate art. The ridiculousness of this argument astounds me.

AND even if SIMPLE potency was involved. NIN has 3 different positionals, one used approximately on average about every 7 seconds plus the TA positional. So if looking at a 45 Second window where SAM has to non true north 2/3 positionals then NIN optimized gets to look at 5/8 positionals potentially lost due to not having True North. Additionally a NIN at many times during combat has to dbl and more than triple weave effectively leaving no room for a true north, making matching it perfectly still far more difficult.

Assuming for whatever reason you (as a SAM) miss both at worst case scenario its 360+360 potency loss follow? Was hoping to avoid mathing it out but here is our worst case scenario.

For NIN arguing the same way and missing all 5 its 300 (60*5) if all are aeolians/AC But were discussing worst case scenario aren't we?
But if one is trick as said discussing even the PERSONAL dps loss from Trick, trick alone is potentially (worst case scenario as you claimed for the sams 360)
140(trick potency loss)+(420*.1AE)+(200*.1SE)+(200*.1 SF)+(400*.1SFdot)+(200*.1SE)+(300*.1GS)+(13*5bunshin)+2(780*.1Hyosho+kass)+(DwD 600*.1)+ (200*.1assassinate) + (500*.1bhava)
140+42++20+20+40+20+30+65+78+78+60+20+50+ the 4 other misses 240 = 903

I hate misconceptions. Which is why I argue. Quor is spreading a misconception even if unintentionally. That SAMs positional game is the biggest loss if it misses. Also I personally never said SAM has no positionals. I just take great issue with someone claiming it of the three (MNK, NIN, SAM) has the toughest time with positionals, cause thats an outright falsity.

additionally Ima say this again. if you EVER want to talk about Balance you have to talk about effect of utility, which means YES including a raid dps loss to the group.

Disregarding that raid buff tho to play in your court: a NIN's missed TA results in a personal 663 potency if during our opener or a properly aligned burst phase. Which during our opener we dont have room for true north at all and precasting it can be risky because of suiton into ten chi jin before we can even trick (possible of course tho.)

This is a very pointless argument, but it flusters me how many people here are incapable of using math to look at this issue, and try to somehow disregard some things to validate their statements.
Statements that require deep context or ignore some piece of data cause misconceptions.

*****

[Vendalwind]

Back on Subject: the exact situational math above is precisely why NIN has problems. we have too much interaction that makes misplacing a single thing destroy the rest of everything we have.
TCJ hurts Bunshin, even Kassatsu can hurt bunshin if we have a bad instance or bad ping. Huton speed buff is wasted in some ways by TCJ and any other forced clipping. We have to stand still for 5~6 seconds for TCJ making us awkwardly immobile at times or we lose out on a huge portion of our potency. (its like if SAM had to move during a cast of midare setsugekka and got screwed out of your 3 sen for moving AND it gave you a negative 6 sen for that single movement misstep)Having a server lag at all can F us over any time we are casting a Ninjutsu resulting in typically at least a 400 if not a 780 potency loss. With no way to recover it AND no way to regain the lost portion of a gcd either should it happen.
and if you dont catch it and it carries into our next attempted jutsu or (god forbid) our TCJ that can be as much as 780+(280*2.5)+(400*2.5)+(130*2.5) at worst case scenario(even worse if it makes you TA delayed). A good NIN will catch this of course and only lose the 780, but the fact that we can lose 2805 due to server tick or ping completely out of our control is terrible.

The class(NIN) has amazing flow, and is extremely fun to play and brain game, but also exceptionally dissatisfying when you look at its numbers because of whats necessary to maintain + what effect your team has on your output.

These above are the reasons we hoped for a change. removing the immobility lock on TCJ would be massive negating a potential 2000+ loss for bad timing. Removing Bunny Mudra and giving us DNC style allowing us to continue our jutsu as if the miss mudra hadnt happened would save us from server tick heavily without any actual dmg buffs, it would just remove potential loss. Making Hyosho on Fuma, and making raiton unique and/or a weak long duration dot would be a huge potency boon due to the removal of a lot of clipping. Making Meisui a flat gain or tied to something other than our suiton would make planning ahead literally 120seconds no longer as big an issue. cutting the duration of bunshin to 8 so it only lasted one full combo, but granting it the teased effect in ShB would be a massive potency buff (instead of this 133 per hit thing)
We hoped for 1 or any of these buffs/changes. getting none of them feels bad. real bad.

SAM also has really interesting flow, and I like playing it but it just has never felt complex enough to drive me.

MNK finally has good flow and is exceptionally fun to play as well because of what it has going on. TBH I hadn't really given Earths Reply any thought as far as positionals were concerned, and in fact it kinda makes me sad cause I love the positional dance of MNK. getting to ignore more than 66% of positional requirements between it and True North is actually upsetting to me cause it removes the classes complexity some. (yes i have a thing for difficulty)

[etch666]

I like how you assume riddle of earth is just another true north you can use whenever you need it. Just shirk the monk when he calls for it and yeah its another true north.

[Duskane]

I like how you assume riddle of earth is just another true north you can use whenever you need it. Just shirk the monk when he calls for it and yeah its another true north.

a 30 second true north on a 60 second CD from every raid wide or mechanic that makes monk take damage is pretty great