Ran'ji > WoD + Oracle of Light + Scorn!?

[LineageRazor]

Ran'jit didn't bother me nearly as much as Zenos did. If anyone's going to get one up on the Warrior of Light, a dedicated warrior with literally a century to hone his craft seems like a pretty good contender. The one unwinnable battle could even be seen as a clever trick, an unknown technique that, now that we've seen it we might not fall for again. His motivations are a bit more compelling, as well - better to usher the world to a peaceful end than send ANOTHER LITTLE GIRL off to her death. I could see where his heart might start to falter after the fifth or sixth Minfillia breathed her last in his arms.

[Riastrad]

Ran'jit didn't bother me nearly as much as Zenos did. If anyone's going to get one up on the Warrior of Light, a dedicated warrior with literally a century to hone his craft seems like a pretty good contender. The one unwinnable battle could even be seen as a clever trick, an unknown technique that, now that we've seen it we might not fall for again. His motivations are a bit more compelling, as well - better to usher the world to a peaceful end than send ANOTHER LITTLE GIRL off to her death. I could see where his heart might start to falter after the fifth or sixth Minfillia breathed her last in his arms.

By standing in our way, the only thing he did was make it so that the Minfilia's sacrifice was for nothing. He tried to kill the worlds best hope because he was weak himself. To me that is not compelling, just cowardly. He knew what Vauthry was doing. He knew he controlled the Sin Eaters. How many little girls, boys, men, women did he let die for nothing? He then has the audacity to say his final words "My girls... There you are...". He betrayed them all.

[RopeDrink]

^ Above mentality discredits the untold number of years/generations he fought against the Sin-Eaters, training those Minfilia's and seeing them cut down, time and time again. This wasn't some rando who saw Vauthry and immediately bent the knee - this is a chap who was likely Numero Uno in the Sin-Eater slaying department on the First who had nothing to show for almost a century of fighting but constant defeat (or as close to it as you can get without being wiped out). Then Emet comes along, instigates the birth of a human Sin Eater who can control those beasties. You'd be tired too after all that time and far more susceptible to the notion that maybe throwing your lot in with that obese scumbag would be preferable to fighting for the losing side which now also has people defecting/mind-controlled and bleeding out numbers without even fighting at all. If not for himself, then for the other Minfilia's.

[Kallera]

^ Above mentality discredits the untold number of years/generations he fought against the Sin-Eaters, training those Minfilia's and seeing them cut down, time and time again. This wasn't some rando who saw Vauthry and immediately bent the knee - this is a chap who was likely Numero Uno in the Sin-Eater slaying department on the First who had nothing to show for almost a century of fighting but constant defeat (or as close to it as you can get without being wiped out). Then Emet comes along, instigates the birth of a human Sin Eater who can control those beasties. You'd be tired too after all that time and far more susceptible to the notion that maybe throwing your lot in with that obese scumbag would be preferable to fighting for the losing side which now also has people defecting/mind-controlled and bleeding out numbers without even fighting at all. If not for himself, then for the other Minfilia's.

Ran’jit did seem to be acting so that there won’t be any more minfillias fighting and dying to sin eater hands.

This is an old man who has bore the pain of seeing little girls he raised fight and die on the front lines, in a war that was well on its way to defeat. Its not like Thancred broke the cycle either, even with the sin eater threat gone, all. that depends on what happens if/when Ryne dies.

[Riastrad]

^ Above mentality discredits the untold number of years/generations he fought against the Sin-Eaters, training those Minfilia's and seeing them cut down, time and time again. This wasn't some rando who saw Vauthry and immediately bent the knee - this is a chap who was likely Numero Uno in the Sin-Eater slaying department on the First who had nothing to show for almost a century of fighting but constant defeat (or as close to it as you can get without being wiped out). Then Emet comes along, instigates the birth of a human Sin Eater who can control those beasties. You'd be tired too after all that time and far more susceptible to the notion that maybe throwing your lot in with that obese scumbag would be preferable to fighting for the losing side which now also has people defecting/mind-controlled and bleeding out numbers without even fighting at all. If not for himself, then for the other Minfilia's.

If the best you can do is die without putting up a fight and submitting yourself to a tyrant along with every other soul you know, then you may as well stop fighting all together. He didn't do that. He actively stood in the way of people trying to make a difference and was putting down people willing to, at the very least, try to fight for a world for their children. Call it for what it is. If you give it your all till it becomes too much, only to turn on those still fighting, that is the definition of being a traitor. And traitors should get what they deserve. What help he gave when Minfilia was actively trying to save the First was washed away when he decided that what he wanted was more important than her mission (saving the First). If a cutscene was added that at least made him falter in his current belief that the world was beyond saving, maybe I would have received his character better. As it stands he was just an annoyance and generally lackluster when it comes to being a well developed antagonist. He was only a stepping stone to our salvation of the First when he could have been an ally. He got off easy.

[LineageRazor]

No one is arguing that Ran'jit is in the right, or that his actions were reasonable - and certainly not noble or honorable. He was a broken man, beaten down by fighting an unwinnable war. He could have seen any number of hope spots, times that it seemed like the resistance was making progress against the Sin Eaters, only to have it all fall apart. Minfillia was their best weapon, and they fielded her time and again, and each time her life bought time, and nothing more. Defeat was inevitable. Hope was impossible. Resistance was nothing more than self-torture.

Ran'jit had no reason to expect that some miraculous hero would arise capable of doing the impossible - and when one DID, he'd already fully partaken of Vauthry's kool-aid. In between childish tantrums, Vauthry DID have some seemingly compelling arguments regarding the hopelessness of it all - that even through some miraculous victory against the Sin Eaters, the few remaining humans would destroy themselves fighting over the few scraps of the world that remained. It's a pretty cup-half-empty view of humanity, but for someone looking for any excuse to finally stop fighting, the words would have been honeyed, indeed.

Resistance is too painful. Let us rest, and enjoy what little time we have left. Hope will always be crushed, so abandon it. After a century of fighting, this is what Ran'jit was reduced to. There are other, better men who have endured as much and more - the Crystal Exarch being a stellar example, who never lost hope in spite of losing everything and having fought just as long if not longer - but I feel that Ran'jit is a man to be pitied, not hated.

[Riastrad]

but I feel that Ran'jit is a man to be pitied, not hated.

To each their own.

[YianKutku]

No one is arguing that Ran'jit is in the right, or that his actions were reasonable - and certainly not noble or honorable. He was a broken man, beaten down by fighting an unwinnable war. He could have seen any number of hope spots, times that it seemed like the resistance was making progress against the Sin Eaters, only to have it all fall apart. Minfillia was their best weapon, and they fielded her time and again, and each time her life bought time, and nothing more. Defeat was inevitable. Hope was impossible. Resistance was nothing more than self-torture.

Ran'jit had no reason to expect that some miraculous hero would arise capable of doing the impossible - and when one DID, he'd already fully partaken of Vauthry's kool-aid. In between childish tantrums, Vauthry DID have some seemingly compelling arguments regarding the hopelessness of it all - that even through some miraculous victory against the Sin Eaters, the few remaining humans would destroy themselves fighting over the few scraps of the world that remained. It's a pretty cup-half-empty view of humanity, but for someone looking for any excuse to finally stop fighting, the words would have been honeyed, indeed.

Resistance is too painful. Let us rest, and enjoy what little time we have left. Hope will always be crushed, so abandon it. After a century of fighting, this is what Ran'jit was reduced to. There are other, better men who have endured as much and more - the Crystal Exarch being a stellar example, who never lost hope in spite of losing everything and having fought just as long if not longer - but I feel that Ran'jit is a man to be pitied, not hated.

As mentioned, the issue isn't just that Ran'jit has given up hope. It's that he actively goes out and crushes hope from people who still had it. He certainly didn't "rest"; he was very much busy leading his army and invading other lands to subjugate them and make sure they submitted to Vauthry. The expedition into Il Mheg might be justified in his mind by his chasing after Ryne, but the alliance with the Everlasting Dark in Rak'tika was an obvious power grab.

Magnus from Twine is an example of a broken man who has given up hope. Ran'jit is, at best, lashing out and believing that if he cannot have hope, then nobody can. That is why I personally believe he is a character to be hated, rather than merely pitied.

[LineageRazor]

As mentioned, the issue isn't just that Ran'jit has given up hope. It's that he actively goes out and crushes hope from people who still had it. He certainly didn't "rest"; he was very much busy leading his army and invading other lands to subjugate them and make sure they submitted to Vauthry. The expedition into Il Mheg might be justified in his mind by his chasing after Ryne, but the alliance with the Everlasting Dark in Rak'tika was an obvious power grab.

Magnus from Twine is an example of a broken man who has given up hope. Ran'jit is, at best, lashing out and believing that if he cannot have hope, then nobody can. That is why I personally believe he is a character to be hated, rather than merely pitied.

There's no evidence that Ran'jit was invading other countries until the Scions - and most specifically, the Warrior of Darkness - started stirring up trouble. Remember, the whole reason Alphinaud was investigating Eulmore was because no one knew anything ABOUT Eulmore; what its policies were, what its leader was like - all they knew is that a once-great ally had holed itself up in its castle and stopped talking to anyone. Once we actually got inside, in fact, dialog in Eulmore suggests that the army had been placed on the back burner ever since Vauthry took the throne, since they were no longer being used to engage the Sin Eaters. He and the army WAS resting - up until the point where we actually took down a Lightwarden.

THAT was when Ran'jit came out of retirement, when the peaceful, quiet end he was yearning for was placed in jeopardy. That was when the army was brought back into action and mobilized. That was the point at which he made his move to recover Minfilia, and to make efforts to protect the remaining Lightwardens - the latter, of course, was the main reason for his move in Rak'tika, not Minfilia. Remember, in his mind, defeating the Sin Eaters would NOT spare the world from doom - in fact, it would just make things worse, as the remnants of humanity tore themselves to pieces fighting each other as resources dwindled. Crushing hope WAS one of his goals, at that point - but entirely because it was a FALSE hope, doing more harm than good, setting the survivors of the world up for a painful end rather than a peaceful one.

Ultimately, as Riastrad implies, it's a matter of opinion; we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there's plenty of room for a "tragically broken old man" interpretation for Ran'jit.

[PeppermintBrown]

It's all well and good investing in the "Yeah, but I'm the WoL, the strongest peep in the land", but you have to account for the story. Zenos, almost entirely by himself, turned the war on Doma on its head. If someone like him can't go toe-to-toe with the WoL, who is still just a mere mortal (albeit one blessed by Light), then you will never feel threatened by anyone. Same applies to Ran'Jit. Ran'Jit is undoubtedly one of the most powerful characters on the First - a war-veteran for generations, trained in a specific art to perfection (can't recall the name - begins with B).

If characters like these can't go toe-to-toe with the WoL in your mind then you're setting yourself up to be disappointed every time a villain is introduced, seeing as you're the almighty and unstoppable WoL who can never be threatened because WoL is boss, WoL is life. We need to be stopped from time to time otherwise nobody will invest in any threat. As it stands, the vast majority of the game is a case of "We don't like throwing you at our problems, WoL, but let's throw you at our problems, because you're the key to everything and we love you, you're the bestest and strongest and most amazingest person".

I don't mind that they beat us.

I mind that they beat us, and then for no apparant reason, we beat them, only because we 'leveled up.' It's lazy and boring writing.

Take Fordola for example, when we fight her for the last time after she shows off her Resonant powers at the bridge canon thing, we don't just beat her because we leveled up. We come up with a plan that uses her newfound power against her.

With Zenos, we get spanked, we get spanked, we win, for no apparent narrative reason. With Ran'jit we get spanked, have a brief inconclusive fight, then kill him, for no apparant narrative reason. Other than 'we leveled up' which is not satisfying story wise.

Losing is fine, but when a character dominates us effortlessly and then we beat them later for no apparent reason THAT is when I have a problem with it.

I have a similar problem with Shinryu. Shinryu is presented as such a big deal that Popolymo sacrifices himself just to buy us time to come up with a plan to stop it. And we resort to working with Nero to unleash Omega on it rather than fight it normally.

Come the end of 4.0... we just kill it casually like any other primal.

I don't mind that there are people or monsters that are stronger than us, but when they present these massive threats and then in the end we just have a normal fight with them and kill them that's just not satisfying.