Ran'ji > WoD + Oracle of Light + Scorn!?

[RopeDrink]

Ran'Jit disabled the Scion's before disabling the WoL. This only looks like a 'defeat' because, for story purposes, the duty ends at that point with the WoL remaining CC'd, but there is nothing to indicate that we were totally defeated other than the timely end to the duty. This is not the same compared to, say, Zenos invading Rhalgr's reach and quite literally cutting us down and sending us helplessly flying across the floor like a rag-doll.

As such, you need to respect just how obnoxious our status is from a story-telling perspective. By the time a player reaches ShB (assuming they've done the majority of content), then the WoL has taken down so many massive threats, monsters, tyrants and primals that, by rights, nothing should touch them. If they uphold this, it's very difficult to make any threat seem legitimate. If they have you on your knees for a story purpose, the typical reaction is "Huh? But I'm the unstoppable WoL!"

Having said that, ShB did a good job representing both sides. From the 'Wow, who are you? How did you do all that amazing stuff?' to being borderline broken by light, or the moments where you still got crippled in a fight vs a big-bad, or were shown how your handiwork (seemingly) resulted in nothing, leaving the hero downcast and morally crushed despite being a force of nature and the star of the show.

In short, I had absolutely no problem with Ran'Jit's scene as it gave him the pep to feel like a threat, but not to an extreme level. Do bear in mind that despite his supposed strength, the reverse also applies - he was downplayed by the Crystal Exarch, was defeated by Thancred 1v1, and later slain by the WoL 1v1. This makes up for those few moments where he is represented as a respectable boss-material.

[shinkin]

Ran'Jit disabled the Scion's before disabling the WoL. This only looks like a 'defeat' because, for story purposes, the duty ends at that point with the WoL remaining CC'd, but there is nothing to indicate that we were totally defeated other than the timely end to the duty. This is not the same compared to, say, Zenos invading Rhalgr's reach and quite literally cutting us down and sending us helplessly flying across the floor like a rag-doll.

This.

"B-but we got strong enough to beat Zenos!"

No we didn't. At best we stalemated someone using his body (who couldn't even use it as well as the original I might add). Even Yoshi said that beating him there was a "miracle".

WoL is unnaturally powerful but his ability is no where near as great as some people seem to think, if was actually capable of half the things people imagined s/he was s/he could have soloed the garleans on their own

[Daralii]

This.

"B-but we got strong enough to beat Zenos!"

No we didn't. At best we stalemated someone using his body (who couldn't even use it as well as the original I might add). Even Yoshi said that beating him there was a "miracle".

WoL is unnaturally powerful but his ability is no where near as great as some people seem to think, if was actually capable of half the things people imagined s/he was s/he could have soloed the garleans on their own

I'd still only consider it a Pyrrhic victory, since Elidibus could just keep reanimating the body over and over again. The WoL would tire eventually.

[PeppermintBrown]

"Power levels are bull****" about sums it up.

Zenos and Ran'jit beat us easily then we're able to beat them for no apparent reason other than 'we leveled up.'

I don't mind this so much in a standalone game where a rookie hero is just starting out. But by the time we met Zenos we'd been through all of ARR and HW. So it just feels really artificial that doing the same things we've been doing over multiple expansions now keeps on boosting our power to crazier levels. Soon we'll be blowing up the moon with energy blasts or something. It's handled lazily and our losses to them never carry any real narrative weight. Not to mention the fights themselves are easy and boring with pre scripted 'you lose' moments rather than making it feel like we're struggling to keep up.

In short, I'm not a fan of how FFXIV impelments the 'unwinnable boss fight.' For a better example look at the final boss of chapter 3 in Final Fantasy Type 0 where you're just trying not to get one shot.

[RopeDrink]

Zenos and Ran'jit beat us easily then we're able to beat them for no apparent reason other than 'we leveled up.'

It's all well and good investing in the "Yeah, but I'm the WoL, the strongest peep in the land", but you have to account for the story. Zenos, almost entirely by himself, turned the war on Doma on its head. If someone like him can't go toe-to-toe with the WoL, who is still just a mere mortal (albeit one blessed by Light), then you will never feel threatened by anyone. Same applies to Ran'Jit. Ran'Jit is undoubtedly one of the most powerful characters on the First - a war-veteran for generations, trained in a specific art to perfection (can't recall the name - begins with B).

If characters like these can't go toe-to-toe with the WoL in your mind then you're setting yourself up to be disappointed every time a villain is introduced, seeing as you're the almighty and unstoppable WoL who can never be threatened because WoL is boss, WoL is life. We need to be stopped from time to time otherwise nobody will invest in any threat. As it stands, the vast majority of the game is a case of "We don't like throwing you at our problems, WoL, but let's throw you at our problems, because you're the key to everything and we love you, you're the bestest and strongest and most amazingest person".

[PeppermintBrown]

It's all well and good investing in the "Yeah, but I'm the WoL, the strongest peep in the land", but you have to account for the story. Zenos, almost entirely by himself, turned the war on Doma on its head. If someone like him can't go toe-to-toe with the WoL, who is still just a mere mortal (albeit one blessed by Light), then you will never feel threatened by anyone. Same applies to Ran'Jit. Ran'Jit is undoubtedly one of the most powerful characters on the First - a war-veteran for generations, trained in a specific art to perfection (can't recall the name - begins with B).

If characters like these can't go toe-to-toe with the WoL in your mind then you're setting yourself up to be disappointed every time a villain is introduced, seeing as you're the almighty and unstoppable WoL who can never be threatened because WoL is boss, WoL is life. We need to be stopped from time to time otherwise nobody will invest in any threat. As it stands, the vast majority of the game is a case of "We don't like throwing you at our problems, WoL, but let's throw you at our problems, because you're the key to everything and we love you, you're the bestest and strongest and most amazingest person".

I don't mind that they beat us.

I mind that they beat us, and then for no apparant reason, we beat them, only because we 'leveled up.' It's lazy and boring writing.

Take Fordola for example, when we fight her for the last time after she shows off her Resonant powers at the bridge canon thing, we don't just beat her because we leveled up. We come up with a plan that uses her newfound power against her.

With Zenos, we get spanked, we get spanked, we win, for no apparent narrative reason. With Ran'jit we get spanked, have a brief inconclusive fight, then kill him, for no apparant narrative reason. Other than 'we leveled up' which is not satisfying story wise.

Losing is fine, but when a character dominates us effortlessly and then we beat them later for no apparent reason THAT is when I have a problem with it.

I have a similar problem with Shinryu. Shinryu is presented as such a big deal that Popolymo sacrifices himself just to buy us time to come up with a plan to stop it. And we resort to working with Nero to unleash Omega on it rather than fight it normally.

Come the end of 4.0... we just kill it casually like any other primal.

I don't mind that there are people or monsters that are stronger than us, but when they present these massive threats and then in the end we just have a normal fight with them and kill them that's just not satisfying.

[TankHunter678]

Losing is fine, but when a character dominates us effortlessly and then we beat them later for no apparent reason THAT is when I have a problem with it. .

I want to point out that we were actually beating Ran'jit before he figured out how our power flow worked and immobilized us (or at least I was, I got him down to half health before he pulled the move off and I was still topped off in health on my SAM). He showed off his special move, which proceeded to never work again against us when he used it later because our characters had figured it out in return. So the next time we actually seriously fought we straight up beat him, despite him fighting in his powered up form. Were it not for that one move he pulled we would have killed him back at Laxan Loft.

The problem though is that Ran'jit was not our villain narratively. He was the equivalent of a mid-boss for the mid-boss. He was Thancred's major villain and foil, so Thancred should have been the one to give him the final blow.

[PeppermintBrown]

I want to point out that we were actually beating Ran'jit before he figured out how our power flow worked and immobilized us (or at least I was, I got him down to half health before he pulled the move off and I was still topped off in health on my SAM). He showed off his special move, which proceeded to never work again against us when he used it later because our characters had figured it out in return. So the next time we actually seriously fought we straight up beat him, despite him fighting in his powered up form. Were it not for that one move he pulled we would have killed him back at Laxan Loft.

The problem though is that Ran'jit was not our villain narratively. He was the equivalent of a mid-boss for the mid-boss. He was Thancred's major villain and foil, so Thancred should have been the one to give him the final blow.

I agree he should have died after Thancred's fight with him.

As for our rematch with him there I never saw a moment that was like 'hah that's not gonna work now' just the same old 'avoid aoes while fighting him.' The first duel with him also didn't feel like we were beating him to me. When he says 'now i have your measure' it seemed to me he was just testing us and decided he was done toying around and went in for the win.

[FrejyaAthenes]

Much like the "Ran'Jit is part Sin Eater" theory, I never quite saw how Ran'Jit beating us was a result of some strange new technique that we just happened to figure out later.

[RopeDrink]

This.

"B-but we got strong enough to beat Zenos!"

No we didn't. At best we stalemated someone using his body (who couldn't even use it as well as the original I might add). Even Yoshi said that beating him there was a "miracle".

WoL is unnaturally powerful but his ability is no where near as great as some people seem to think, if was actually capable of half the things people imagined s/he was s/he could have soloed the garleans on their own

Exactly. While we are indeed the star of the show, most of this content does actually involve groups of people of that same power level (even if they are not present for cutscenes). If you invest fully into this whole "I am the WoL, the unstoppable and most awesome person ever", then it's no wonder that scenes of us actually being equalled (or, shock horror, beaten) is viewed negatively. To me, those are REFRESHING moments, because 90% of the game is spent with the WoL being the answer to everything, despite merely being a blessed mortal backed by other blessed mortals. In the (half-remembered) words of Emet, "Oh you tower above your other kind, no doubt" - but we're not immortal gods.

It is also unfair to assume that just because we're the WoL, we immediately and instantaneously adapt to every single threat right there. It is why I'm not in the least bit surprised that we face Ran'Jit and find ourselves temporarily disabled. It's not like we have foresight as well as unparalleled/infinite strength. As said, we need to be put in our place from time to time or else the game constantly threatens to leave us on an unreachable pedestal - which is infinitely less enjoyable than actually selling a villain as a threat and making them feel worth our attention.

I'd still only consider it a Pyrrhic victory, since Elidibus could just keep reanimating the body over and over again. The WoL would tire eventually.

Which is what happens. Do bear in mind that we won the initial duel, but he simply rose again and would have continued to do so (seeing as we had no means on us to outright slay an Ascian). For the most part, we were defeated by the combination of Eli and the summoning.