Don't nerf DRG - BUFF NIN

[HyoMinPark]

How is that different from only having 1 physical ranged and 1 caster? Groups would just take the best job from those roles for the 1% buff and the others would be left out. Why is it ok to do that to the ranged roles, but not to melee?

If you make it so where the ranged do the same damage as the melee, there is no advantage to taking melee DPS over ranged DPS. The advantage with melee DPS is that melee DPS deal more damage than the ranged (with the exception of BLM, and BLM is honest a little broken right now). The advantages ranged have is that they are able to execute mechanics from anywhere and do not lose damage by doing so (contrast that to melee, which do lose damage for disengaging). There is and should always be a balance between the two: you should never heavily stack one over the other.


I’m curious what your experience is with raiding, because I feel like you don’t think fight mechanics have as much impact as they actually do with comments like “why would you ever bring a MCH over a MNK and DRG”. Have you done any of these fights were triple/quadruple melee would not be functional?

[Marianno]

I still don’t quite understand how and why people would want BLM to be brought down because it’s beating out SMN/RDM. RDM could use a buff I agree, or fix its mana issues. We have gone two whole expansions with SMN beating out BLM badly. BLM never had the damage to be termed a true selfish DPS job. Now it does and people want to bring it low. Even with the buff to F4 up to 300 potency, it helped but not enough to really make it shine in SB. I will agree that the SMN rotation is clunky and has too many OGCDs just from levelling. However, I think reverting back to a state where a SMN beats out BLM is bad. SMN has utility (albeit long but it has the utility) and has mobile damage (you can’t turn off dots). R3 punishment should be addressed as well as the over-saturation of OGCDs. Not saying the majority of people are asking for a buff to damage per say, but this is likely to happen and we will have a repeat of HW/SB.

[HyoMinPark]

I still don’t quite understand how and why people would want BLM to be brought down because it’s beating out SMN/RDM. RDM could use a buff I agree, or fix its mana issues. We have gone two whole expansions with SMN beating out BLM badly. BLM never had the damage to be termed a true selfish DPS job. Now it does and people want to bring it low. Even with the buff to F4 up to 300 potency, it helped but not enough to really make it shine in SB. I will agree that the SMN rotation is clunky and has too many OGCDs just from levelling. However, I think reverting back to a state where a SMN beats out BLM is bad. SMN has utility (albeit long but it has the utility) and has mobile damage (you can’t turn off dots). R3 punishment should be addressed as well as the over-saturation of OGCDs. Not saying the majority of people are asking for a buff to damage per say, but this is likely to happen and we will have a repeat of HW/SB.

I don’t think people are saying that RDM or SMN need to beat BLM, though. I do think they’re saying that it shouldn’t be laughably one-sided with BLM utterly destroying both of them.

Right now, the difference between BLM and SMN is ~800 rDPS at the 95th percentile in Innocence EX. That’s...very significant. Compare this to the physical ranged, where the differences are far less: MCH and BRD are separated by ~70 rDPS and DNC is ~300 rDPS behind BRD at the 95th percentile. At the 75th percentile, the gaps are a little larger; but the higher you go up, the smaller the difference. With the casters at 75th percentile, BLM is ahead of SMN by ~600 rDPS, with RDM ~200 rDPS below SMN.

I also don’t know which other expansion you’re talking about, but SMN wasn’t beating out BLM in HW. In Gordias, BLM was in magical metas, not SMN. And neither were in the meta during Creator because the physical ranged were killing both of them. In SB, it only pulled ahead because the 4.1 changes broke it. BLM started to catch up in late Alphascape, but it had the damage in 4.3. What held BLM back more was its lack of mobility compared to SMN in fights with a lot of heavy movement, but they have fixed that.


Personally, I think there needs to be some gaps closed between the casters. I also think that BLM shouldn’t be ~400 rDPS above the melee, so that gap could be closed just a little bit. I think BLM warrants doing slightly more, since it is still punished by movement, but I don’t think the gap needs to be large. For some reason, the developers seem afraid to allow SAM to do the Big D numbers like BLM currently does, and I’m not sure why. Of the melee, SAM and NIN need adjustments when it comes to numbers. I think MNK needs adjustments in terms of gameplay...and has needed them for a while.


EDIT because posting limits again—can we seriously do away with these?

Maybe it's because BLM is heavily punished from any movement compared to SAM ? That didn't cross your mind even a little ?

BLM has more mobility than ever, so while they are still punished by heavy movement if none of their tools are available, it’s not nearly as bad as it used to be. Ah, but I did mention how I think BLM could still be a little bit ahead of SAM based on how it still loses when it comes to movement. I suppose you just skipped over that part of my reply though.

Personally, I think there needs to be some gaps closed between the casters. I also think that BLM shouldn’t be ~400 rDPS above the melee, so that gap could be closed just a little bit. I think BLM warrants doing slightly more, since it is still punished by movement, but I don’t think the gap needs to be large. For some reason, the developers seem afraid to allow SAM to do the Big D numbers like BLM currently does, and I’m not sure why. Of the melee, SAM and NIN need adjustments when it comes to numbers. I think MNK needs adjustments in terms of gameplay...and has needed them for a while.

At 75th percentile, BLM is above SAM by ~500 rDPS. At 95th percentile, it’s ~600 rDPS. That’s a fairly large gap, and I think SAM could be buffed a bit more. Since, you know, it also loses damage if it is forced to disengage from the boss at any given time much like how BLM also loses damage from heavy movement despite all its mobility tools.

[Starkbeaumont]

Legend/Key : APM = Actions Per Minute , RBDPS = Raid Buff Damage Per Second, divide by 8 and you get the potency for self buff. , DPS = Damage Per Second.

SKILL CEILING.
RANKED IN ORDER OF TOP TO BOTTOM IN DPS.
BLM : 3,752.45 | APM : 28.9 | RBDPS = 0
SAM : 3,577.34| APM : 34.1 | RBDPS = 0
MNK : 3,158.92 | APM : 38.8 | RBDPS = 400
MCH : 2,693.52| APM : 41.7 | RBDPS = 0
DRG : 3,511.55| APM : 36.9 | RBDPS = 575
BRD : 2,784.27| APM : 41.1 | RBDPS = 400
SMN : 3,192.37| APM : 38.7 | RBDPS = 0
RDM : 3,327.35| APM : 34.1 | RBDPS = 300
NIN : 2,649.42| APM : 45.5 | RBDPS = 925
DNC : 2,308.77| APM : 34.8 | RBDPS =1600

if i understand this correctly the real dps would be pdps + rbdps.

that puts drg and dnc at the top.

nin, sam, mnk are pretty much in line with each other.
smn is undertuned compared to blm and rdm

mch seems really low

but I guess i misinterpreted something here

[Adventica6]

For some reason, the developers seem afraid to allow SAM to do the Big D numbers like BLM currently does, and I’m not sure why.

Maybe it's because BLM is heavily punished from any movement compared to SAM ? That didn't cross your mind even a little ?

[ForteNightshade]

Maybe it's because BLM is heavily punished from any movement compared to SAM ? That didn't cross your mind even a little ?

Except Black Mage has more tools to handle movement than ever before. It also has the benefit of being able to pre-position itself once you learn the fight. Samurai has no such luxury if a mechanic requires they disengage. Regardless, that difference should not be 500-600 rDPS because it ultimately renders Samurai pointless. Not to mention, this mentality is precisely what has caused the massive imbalance between the Casters—where you have Black Mage pulling ahead of Red Mage by nearly 1,000 in rDPS.

[MaelleRiou]

If you make it so where the ranged do the same damage as the melee, there is no advantage to taking melee DPS over ranged DPS. The advantage with melee DPS is that melee DPS deal more damage than the ranged (with the exception of BLM, and BLM is honest a little broken right now). The advantages ranged have is that they are able to execute mechanics from anywhere and do not lose damage by doing so (contrast that to melee, which do lose damage for disengaging). There is and should always be a balance between the two: you should never heavily stack one over the other.

There are 3 DPS roles and 4 DPS slots on a raid. Why should the 4th open slot automatically default to melee every time?

[ForteNightshade]

There are 3 DPS roles and 4 DPS slots on a raid. Why should the 4th open slot automatically default to melee every time?

Because they have to for the reasons already stated. If the range DPS did equal damage, they have zero drawbacks and therefore become automatically better. Conversely, the current design revolves around fight encounters themselves. Bosses with forced disengagement will encourage a triple range comp, especially given all the changes in Shadowbringers.

Put simply, each role needs some inherent weakness. Melee lose uptime but deal higher damage to compensate. Range are the reverse.

[Marianno]

I just understand that samurai loses damage if the job is forced to disengage. However, haven’t we had enough where everything should always be about melee? Why can’t others shine? I agree that SAM could use a buff but to bring BLM down is the part I can’t get behind. BLM has mobility but what happens when they are forced to disengage for a mechanic and the boss is on the other side of the arena? The job loses damage. People like to say that BLM should be brought down, however the argument was different some time ago. It was all about... “I don’t understand why SE is afraid to give it the damage it needs to actually be a true selfish DPS.” Now that this has happened, people want to bring it low. Why not just buff the damn SAM, fix SMN issues with OGCD saturation, bring RDM up and fix its mana issues, fix ninja with buffs and address it’s play-style issues, fix monks issues and address is identity issues.

[Marianno]

I concede that perhaps my points are childish but I strongly believe it is the “meta” and these damn party buffs that got us here to this point in the first place. People want to play support jobs but want the personal damage of jobs that have no utility. SE should maybe think about getting rid of this “meta” and scrap all party buffs in the game. It’s clear that somewhere down the line perhaps they are struggling to balance party buffs that certain jobs have against those that don’t have it. Just my opinion so feel free to disagree.