Don't nerf DRG - BUFF NIN

[DaulBan]

rDPS statistics taken from fflogs. It's pretty clear here that NIN is doing pretty bad compared to its melee compatriots in terms of rDPS. It's doing about 10% less DPS than MNK, which is reasonably close to the other Melee. If it got a modest buff NIN would be pretty close to on an acceptable level. Nerfing DRG doesn't do anything for NIN since rDPS on MNK is still better for the melee slot of your comp. You'd just have two dead melee roles, and an auto-slot MNK most the time.

Note, these statistics are over a fairly short period when rDPS has actually been recorded. Also, because of the way these average out, there are cases where DNC is just (ballpark) as good as MCH/BRD depending on comp (having a BLM) so its not quite as bad as it looks.

[ForteNightshade]

Um, exactly what I said I was looking at? Eden fights? Voidwalker and Leviathan specifically. They also 2 and 3 on Eden Prime, monk is 2nd on Titan. Monk is 2nd on Titania and 3rd on Innocence.

I'm failing to see the reason why these 2 support DPS should be beating pure DPS. Monk is within the top 3 DPS of every fight and Dragoon is often in the top 3 or just below it. Monk probably needs bigger nerfs than Dragoon does.

Normal mode is a poor indicator. Not only does it lack enrage but it's considerably easier than EX Primals. Parses are typically all over the place because no one really cares about Normal mode in terms of FFlogs. You're going to see a lot more players who are either learning their rotation or couldn't be bothered to care one way or another. Hence why I keep referencing Innocence EX who is much closer to a Savage encounter even if he's also fairly easy.

That all being said, rDPS accounts for everything. BLM should be far higher in personal DPS but more evenly spread once you factor rDPS. Instead, it's so strong than even Litany/Dragon Sight and Brotherhood still put Dragoon and Monk below it by 400. Put simply, Dragoon is offering a 10% every three minutes and it still can't come close a job that offers nothing. This isn't to say every job should be precisely the same rDPS but it shouldn't be staggeringly apart either. Putting aside the melee for a moment. If Black mage remains as it is... Red Mage and Summoner need enormous buffs since they're nowhere near Black Mage. The former is 900 rDPS behind. Which begs the question, why people a far inferior job?

[DaulBan]

This isn't to say every job should be precisely the same rDPS but it shouldn't be staggeringly apart either. Putting aside the melee for a moment. If Black mage remains as it is... Red Mage and Summoner need enormous buffs since they're nowhere near Black Mage. The former is 900 rDPS behind. Which begs the question, why people a far inferior job?

A couple things;

1. rDPS competition is primarily within your role, not between roles. Running 4 BLM is theoretically sound based on these numbers but you miss out on a 2% flat rDPS bonus from comp (missing a melee and ranged phys) as well as severely penalized LB gain. SAM doesn't need to do as much DPS as BLM to be viable, it needs to be doing as much dps as the rest of the melee to be viable. The 1% comp gain alone is worth slotting all roles given the spread here. Assuming that LB gain is important (and it is) that also sort of squeezes out running duplicates, meaning that while BLM might be strong it's not strong enough to warrant two of them. Really, if you want to run a duplicate of something right now your best bet is double WHM since the gulf between WHM and SCH is big enough some people do it for memes as well as for realsies. For DPS specifically though the comparison isn't 'if BLM does 400 more rDPS than MNK why bring MNK' it's 'if BLM does 400 more rDPS than any other job, does this stuff double ranged or double melee more'.

2. BLM is a severe outlier but it's sort of hard to know exactly where it should be. It's clearly a monster an a certain pick for speedkills, but at its most egregious its about 1000 rDPS ahead of SMN. RDM is a bit worse, but both are pretty squarely in 'buffable' range. If I had to guess both RDM and SMN will see some serious buffage to put them into a more viable range. It's worth noting that SMN got a rather astonishing buff during Deltascape which promoted it from meme pick to meta rather quickly, so even if things aren't rectified right away there's a decent chance that come 5.1 RDM and SMN will get the love they need.

[NoctusT]

rDPS statistics taken from fflogs. It's pretty clear here that NIN is doing pretty bad compared to its melee compatriots in terms of rDPS. It's doing about 10% less DPS than MNK, which is reasonably close to the other Melee. If it got a modest buff NIN would be pretty close to on an acceptable level. Nerfing DRG doesn't do anything for NIN since rDPS on MNK is still better for the melee slot of your comp. You'd just have two dead melee roles, and an auto-slot MNK most the time.

Note, these statistics are over a fairly short period when rDPS has actually been recorded. Also, because of the way these average out, there are cases where DNC is just (ballpark) as good as MCH/BRD depending on comp (having a BLM) so its not quite as bad as it looks.

You might want to show data of 99%-ile since that's more indicative of the skill ceiling for the jobs than 75%-ile players. OP was talking bout the skill ceiling unless I misread the post.

[Anselmet]

Are we... able to post data from fflogs without being banned? Bc I think some ppl might wanna edit post before the mods purge us all.

That being said, ninja is in a bad place. Drg is probably too good. I'm sorry but something's gotta give and it's prolly gonna be drg nerfed and ninja buffed so we're closer in dps. v_v

[Lina_Slayer]

You might want to show data of 99%-ile since that's more indicative of the skill ceiling for the jobs than 75%-ile players. OP was talking bout the skill ceiling unless I misread the post.

Due to DNC being the ultimate pad class 99% is not good either, 95 is probably the sweet spot, but even 90 is okay, for example the fastest Titania Extreme clear has a 96 BLM and it's probably not because he was subpar, but because the comp they used didn't include DNC, which is a huge boost to a single person.
75 is a more average metric and is fine too depending on what you are talking about.

[DaulBan]

You might want to show data of 99%-ile since that's more indicative of the skill ceiling for the jobs than 75%-ile players. OP was talking bout the skill ceiling unless I misread the post.

The curve is roughly the same at most percentiles. Increasing the percentile changes the scale but the proportion is abooout the same.

Are we... able to post data from fflogs without being banned? Bc I think some ppl might wanna edit post before the mods purge us all.

I post fflogs-gathered data fairly frequently. Haven't gotten in trouble for it yet.

Due to DNC being the ultimate pad class 99% is not good either, 95 is probably the sweet spot, but even 90 is okay, for example the fastest Titania Extreme clear has a 96 BLM and it's probably not because he was subpar, but because the comp they used didn't include DNC, which is a huge boost to a single person.

The chart is rDPS. There being a Dancer or not is irrelevant. rDPS is the calculated total contribution to the group (your DPS - The DPS you gained from other people's buffs + the DPS you gave to other people through your buffs).

[Renkei]

No, the number to the far left indicates skill ceiling damage, and RBDPS is a separate modifier for utility damage, the roles are listed from top to bottom in dps though, but the damage numbers show the disparity from high level to low level of skill so it shows the ranking of jobs based on highest dps, and the disparity of Dps from 0-99 Percentile, RBDPS indirectly influences the ceiling in a way yes. MCH is low because it requires a very low skill ceiling in order to obtain maximum performance. it means the damage disparity between the bottom and top of MCH's is only 2,693.52 dps. but in a way, ya dancer and dragoon are at the top, but drg is beaten on average in personal damage by MCH, MNK, SAM, BLM. but RBDPS is practically utility damage, so once you cake out the damage and its apart of the rotation dancer is the easiest class to play statically. DRG has the 3rd highest damage disparity in terms of skill so nerfing it would actually be counter productive, it'd just make it worse for the people who are good at it, and drop it under MCH damage 100% of the time, RBDPS doesn't directly impact this disparity unless they aren't using the buffs to begin with, its not included in the maximum cap, but its apart of the cap. If DRG does get nerf'd we will end up with DNC x2 BLM SAM DPS Meta.

[Lina_Slayer]

A certain Discord made your exercise in a much more meaningful way OP by using percentage instead of raw numbers, while I've seen this weeks ago it's probably still accurate:
https://scontent-gru2-2.xx.fbcdn.net...fd&oe=5DDE142E
Disregarding the obvius elitism of calling people "potato", it is a decent figure that shows how a class performs compared to "ideal" performance (in this case 90%) it is also pDPS only since it was before recent update on that certain site that shows rDPS.

Looking at this we can clearly see that uptime is the biggest villain, MCH has high APM and a complex rotation, but is still the top job in terms of accesibility, RDM is bottom, but I'd guess it has way more to do with class fantasy and thus players using "defensive" skills more than they should, the casters are all in the bottom, meaning casting is still considered "hard" by the majority of the community, even harder than melee. SAM being so low is a mistery to me tho.

[Renkei]

A certain Discord made your exercise in a much more meaningful way OP by using percentage instead of raw numbers, while I've saw this weeks ago it's probably still accurate:
https://scontent-gru2-2.xx.fbcdn.net...fd&oe=5DDE142E
Disregarding the obvius elitism of calling people "potato", it is a decent figure that shows how a class performs compared to "ideal" performance (in this case 90%) it is also pDPS only since it was before recent update on that certain site that shows rDPS.

Looking at this we can clearly see that uptime is the biggest villain, MCH has high APM and a complex rotation, but is still the top job in terms of accesibility, RDM is bottom, but I'd guess it has way more to do with class fantasy and thus players using "defensive" skills more than they should, the casters are all in the bottom, meaning casting is still considered "hard" by the majority of the community, even harder than melee. SAM being so low is a mistery to me tho.

That's cool and all but the biggest problem with your chart is anything under top 30% is considered potato and the Literal Definition of Average is a Median. It would make more sense if above average is above 30%, High Tier is 15% and top tier is 5%.