SE needs to do more to help bad players

[Liam_Harper]

but never will I kick or get mad at a Healer who opts to not DPS.
Oh noes my dungeon run will take approximately 2.6 minutes longer! Woe is me!

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

A 0 dps healer would be fine in a high damage situation where people are dying, especially if they're new or learning. But if they're twiddling their thumbs for 30 seconds in an easy fight or spamming overheals on something the tank could effortlessly solo and refuse to contribute more because "Enix said I don't have to", while the other 3 players are going all out to the best of their ability, they absolutely deserve the boot.

Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.

You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

[Wavaryen]

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

You are going through some serious extremes here. Being bad does not equal they are not trying.

Like I said before, you pick to let the game make you a group to save time. If you want quality control, make friends and make your own groups. Like I said before, if someone plays bad, and still enjoys the game and that ruins your fun. Well that is a small price to pay for that bad player.

I honestly didn't think the "you don't pay my sub" crowd really exist, I thought it was just a joke.

People like this guy are why we should be allowed to vote kick as many times as we need to and why we should be able to show numbers so people can see just how heavy of a carry they are (I'm not self absorbed so I'd personally feel bad if I'm dragging my team down). Someone like this wouldn't make it through a single player game unless he changed his ways but he doesn't have to here because other people will carry him. While calling the people that are annoyed with him because he simply refuses to use his skills...elitist and toxic.

I mean, I would not want to group with you also. Also you assume a ton about me, and that is fine.



This community needs to ask themselves this. Are you really that annoyed that bad players group with you and it takes you longer to do a dungeon? Is that the community that you want? When I group I fail, I say sorry. I don't act like a jerk. I don't even call people out when they get mad. I laugh a little, but it is not like I provoke. I won't let your anger ruin my fun.



Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.



I'm pretty old school gamer. I use to play muds, and older mmos. This game gives players who hate grouping with bads. Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.


You want convenience of fast group making, and having decent groups all the time. You can't have both.

[Rivxkobe]

This community needs to ask themselves this. Are you really that annoyed that bad players group with you and it takes you longer to do a dungeon? Is that the community that you want? When I group I fail, I say sorry. I don't act like a jerk. I don't even call people out when they get mad. I laugh a little, but it is not like I provoke. I won't let your anger ruin my fun.

Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.

I'm pretty old school gamer. I use to play muds, and older mmos. This game gives players who hate grouping with bads. Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.

We can complain about you wasting our time and playing worse than you could because you want too. It literally reads as trolling when you avoid skills you don't "like". The fact that you laugh about people getting upset about you wasting their time and dragging the team down also reads as trolling.

I am happy to help players who want to learn and want to improve. But players who choose to play poorly? I don't have time or patience for that and I'm going to let you know that you are wasting time and that if you don't pick it up and carry your weight when everyone else is playing, at least, decently.

If you see no issue with how you play there is nothing the rest of us can actually say to change your mind though.

Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

Countering his bad analogy with your bad analogy doesn't somehow make your's a good one.

[Wavaryen]

We can complain about you wasting our time and playing worse than you could because you want too. It literally reads as trolling when you avoid skills you don't "like". The fact that you laugh about people getting upset about you wasting their time and dragging the team down also reads as trolling.

I am happy to help players who want to learn and want to improve. But players who choose to play poorly? I don't have time or patience for that and I'm going to let you know that you are wasting time and that if you don't pick it up and carry your weight when everyone else is playing, at least, decently.

If you see no issue with how you play there is nothing the rest of us can actually say to change your mind though.

No you won't cbhange my mind and I don't need you to have fun, for my own fun.

I'm just saying that what some of you want can't be done, and won't be done. You either adjust or not. and the people who pick to do play like this. I doubt they care about your patience. I'm sorry to say.

[Sylve]

Countering his bad analogy with your bad analogy doesn't somehow make your's a good one.

His analogy is one that's been trotted out since before HW.
He claims that a Healer not contributing to the party if they're not DPSing.
I ask of him to complete a dungeon with no Healer. His opinion that a Healers contribution is exclusive to their DPS, so i challenge him to complete that dungeon in a situation where there IS no Healer to contribute anything to the party. See how far he gets.
Hint: Not far.

[Nims]

Also you assume a ton about me, and that is fine.

I'm going off what you literally said, that's not assuming anything.

Is that the community that you want?

For me, personally? Yes. I come from open world pvp mmos with a way more hostile community and I thrive in that setting...so yes. I do want a community that calls out bad players that won't use a skill because they don't like the animation.

I won't let your anger ruin my fun.

But you're ok with your "playstyle" ruining other people's fun? Why is that acceptable?

Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.

Only white knights praise this community, others don't care and the rest sees this community for what it is. People that literally send death threatens if you criticize the game.

Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.


You want convenience of fast group making, and having decent groups all the time. You can't have both.

You want people to use tools to avoid you but you don't want to use tools to simply play your class properly? Are you even comprehending what you're saying? Also I hate party finders and prefer to make parties on my own. However if I make a party and people like you join, I still have to do deal with you.

It's absurd because you know what your issue is, you simply don't want to use skills you don't like (What?) and expect other people to move around your inability to play.

You are going through some serious extremes here. Being bad does not equal they are not trying.

Except it does, I mean look at you for example...

[Wavaryen]

I'm going off what you literally said, that's not assuming anything.

Ok cool!

For me, personally? Yes. I come from open world pvp mmos with a way more hostile community and I thrive in that setting...so yes. I do want a community that calls out bad players that won't use a skill because they don't like the animation.

That is fine, but that is not what this mmo was about, and if it leans toward that. This game can no longer say it has the best community.

But you're ok with your "playstyle" ruining other people's fun? Why is that acceptable?

I mean you can turn that around. Here is the thing, one of us fun going to get ruined. Lucky for me it is not mine.

Only white knights praise this community, others don't care and the rest sees this community for what it is. People that literally send death threatens if you criticize the game.

Seems like this community already changed for the worse. *sighs* this is kinda why I wish wow would have stayed a decent game.

You want people to use tools to avoid you but you don't want to use tools to simply play your class properly? Are you even comprehending what you're saying? Also I hate party finders and prefer to make parties on my own. However if I make a party and people like you join, I still have to do deal with you.

It's absurd because you know what your issue is, you simply don't want to use skills you don't like (What?) and expect other people to move around your inability to play.


Except it does, I mean look at you for example...

I mean just add people to friends that you know are good and build up a team.


I'm just stating this simple fact. People won't get good, and don't care if they get called out. Making the game harder will just waste more of your time. That is it.

[Nims]

Ok cool!

I mean...you asked....

That is fine, but that is not what this mmo was about, and if it leans toward that. This game can no longer say it has the best community.

The game technically doesn't say it has the best community, part of the playerbase says that. And I personally don't care how the community is, not sure why you're trying to use this as a point. Thinking "Oh the community is so nice so I can play like absolute garbage and it's ok" is not ok. This is also why I'm for parsers, in a community where people call other people out, this way of thinking isn't broadcast openly.

I mean you can turn that around. Here is the thing, one of us fun going to get ruined. Lucky for me it is not mine.

No you can't turn that around, I'm not going out of my way to make things worse for other people. So again...why is it acceptable for you to ruin other people's fun? Why is it acceptable for you to make things take drastically longer than they should? Not because you're new, not because you don't know the mechanics or are practing the mechanics but simply because you want to make things go worse?

Seems like this community already changed for the worse. *sighs* this is kinda why I wish wow would have stayed a decent game.

Um, no? This community needs to take responsibility for it's own actions. The person that got the death threat was an old WoW player that actually likes this game more than WoW now. The person that made the threat was a long time FFXIV player....

I mean just add people to friends that you know are good and build up a team.


I'm just stating this simple fact. People won't get good, and don't care if they get called out. Making the game harder will just waste more of your time. That is it.

So why don't you just build a team of people you know and only do dungeons with them? That way you all can press only the cool animations (of course you main samurai....). Making the game harder weeds out people like you and I'm totally okay with that.

[Rivxkobe]

(of course you main samurai....).

I'm sorry.

...

So to elaborate on my point before.

There is a difference between contributing by being extremely basic at your role and contributing by going beyond the basics.

Contributing through healing alone is equal to a Tank holding Aggro and a DPS dealing damage. They all mean little to nothing on their own but you need them all to clear a run.

[Nims]

I'm sorry.

It's okay sweet summer child.

Because unlike you, when I don't get upset with players around me when I use a convenience tool for fast grouping. I accept what it gives me.
.

Because it's a covenience tool does not make it acceptable for you to not even try. There's one thing, again, to just generally not be good. It's another to not even try. You simply aren't even trying.

And if you accept what's given to you, why not accept that people are going to expect you to play your class properly and atleast try?

It's a two way street.

You can't force players to play how you want them to do it.

We aren't asking for that. We're atleast asking for ways to deal with them that doesn't punish us.

Why am I getting a temp ban for saying you're garbage when you KNOW you're garbage?
Why am I getting a 30 minute penalty for leaving a group with people that only uses 2 skills because they have cool animations?
Why is it there a 2 hour (fact check on that, I know it's like an hour to three hours) cool down on kicking people when there's many people that refuse to try?

This game gives people like you too many chances, tools, and opportunity to harass (cause that's what it is at this point) other players.

Hm? I am trying to what I want to do. As much as my fun factor will let me. If that means it takes a extra 5 to 10 mins of a run being slower. I'm willing to put that burden on my group. As long as it gets done that is all that matters, and if that ruins your fun. I'm not really sorry about that. Lucky for you, I don't group with players unless I got to do it.

You simply can not do what you want in a group setting with randoms. Again it's a two way street, I can not expect randoms to play the way I want them and I don't when I'm pugging. Why are you exempt from basic human decency by actually playing your class and being considerate?

Welp if you keep getting kicked don't blame it on the "community" and gripe about how the "community" isn't the best any more.