SE needs to do more to help bad players

[Nims]

Lots of pages, but I'm just going to put my two cents on this subject as a baddie .

Content that is force on players to get through storyline should stay easy. Telling players to get good, or wanting to get better is silly. MMOs are design for all types of players, some players don't really care to get better. We have no right to judge them when they are doing content they are force to do in story. Now if they are doing tough content that requires them to be better, and they know they are bad. Ya, they should not be doing that content and I can understand why people get upset.


Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.


Also does this game not have tools for you to get around this problem? Make friends with people and make your own groups like in the old days? I might be old fashion in thinking this, but the convenience of push to play content comes at the cost of quality control of the players. So even I can't blame the bad players like myself too much.

I honestly didn't think the "you don't pay my sub" crowd really exist, I thought it was just a joke.

People like this guy are why we should be allowed to vote kick as many times as we need to and why we should be able to show numbers so people can see just how heavy of a carry they are (I'm not self absorbed so I'd personally feel bad if I'm dragging my team down). Someone like this wouldn't make it through a single player game unless he changed his ways but he doesn't have to here because other people will carry him. While calling the people that are annoyed with him because he simply refuses to use his skills...elitist and toxic.

[Liam_Harper]

but never will I kick or get mad at a Healer who opts to not DPS.
Oh noes my dungeon run will take approximately 2.6 minutes longer! Woe is me!

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

A 0 dps healer would be fine in a high damage situation where people are dying, especially if they're new or learning. But if they're twiddling their thumbs for 30 seconds in an easy fight or spamming overheals on something the tank could effortlessly solo and refuse to contribute more because "Enix said I don't have to", while the other 3 players are going all out to the best of their ability, they absolutely deserve the boot.

Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.

You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

[Wavaryen]

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

You are going through some serious extremes here. Being bad does not equal they are not trying.

Like I said before, you pick to let the game make you a group to save time. If you want quality control, make friends and make your own groups. Like I said before, if someone plays bad, and still enjoys the game and that ruins your fun. Well that is a small price to pay for that bad player.

I honestly didn't think the "you don't pay my sub" crowd really exist, I thought it was just a joke.

People like this guy are why we should be allowed to vote kick as many times as we need to and why we should be able to show numbers so people can see just how heavy of a carry they are (I'm not self absorbed so I'd personally feel bad if I'm dragging my team down). Someone like this wouldn't make it through a single player game unless he changed his ways but he doesn't have to here because other people will carry him. While calling the people that are annoyed with him because he simply refuses to use his skills...elitist and toxic.

I mean, I would not want to group with you also. Also you assume a ton about me, and that is fine.



This community needs to ask themselves this. Are you really that annoyed that bad players group with you and it takes you longer to do a dungeon? Is that the community that you want? When I group I fail, I say sorry. I don't act like a jerk. I don't even call people out when they get mad. I laugh a little, but it is not like I provoke. I won't let your anger ruin my fun.



Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.



I'm pretty old school gamer. I use to play muds, and older mmos. This game gives players who hate grouping with bads. Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.


You want convenience of fast group making, and having decent groups all the time. You can't have both.

[Sylve]

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

A 0 dps healer would be fine in a high damage situation where people are dying, especially if they're new or learning. But if they're twiddling their thumbs for 30 seconds in an easy fight or spamming overheals on something the tank could effortlessly solo and refuse to contribute more because "Enix said I don't have to", while the other 3 players are going all out to the best of their ability, they absolutely deserve the boot.



You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

[Rivxkobe]

This community needs to ask themselves this. Are you really that annoyed that bad players group with you and it takes you longer to do a dungeon? Is that the community that you want? When I group I fail, I say sorry. I don't act like a jerk. I don't even call people out when they get mad. I laugh a little, but it is not like I provoke. I won't let your anger ruin my fun.

Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.

I'm pretty old school gamer. I use to play muds, and older mmos. This game gives players who hate grouping with bads. Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.

We can complain about you wasting our time and playing worse than you could because you want too. It literally reads as trolling when you avoid skills you don't "like". The fact that you laugh about people getting upset about you wasting their time and dragging the team down also reads as trolling.

I am happy to help players who want to learn and want to improve. But players who choose to play poorly? I don't have time or patience for that and I'm going to let you know that you are wasting time and that if you don't pick it up and carry your weight when everyone else is playing, at least, decently.

If you see no issue with how you play there is nothing the rest of us can actually say to change your mind though.

Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

Countering his bad analogy with your bad analogy doesn't somehow make your's a good one.

[Wavaryen]

We can complain about you wasting our time and playing worse than you could because you want too. It literally reads as trolling when you avoid skills you don't "like". The fact that you laugh about people getting upset about you wasting their time and dragging the team down also reads as trolling.

I am happy to help players who want to learn and want to improve. But players who choose to play poorly? I don't have time or patience for that and I'm going to let you know that you are wasting time and that if you don't pick it up and carry your weight when everyone else is playing, at least, decently.

If you see no issue with how you play there is nothing the rest of us can actually say to change your mind though.

No you won't cbhange my mind and I don't need you to have fun, for my own fun.

I'm just saying that what some of you want can't be done, and won't be done. You either adjust or not. and the people who pick to do play like this. I doubt they care about your patience. I'm sorry to say.

[Deathgiver]

Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

Have done so in the past on what was a less than week old expert dungeon, it really doesn't make that much difference in most dungeons, you just cant pull as much.

[Sylve]

Countering his bad analogy with your bad analogy doesn't somehow make your's a good one.

His analogy is one that's been trotted out since before HW.
He claims that a Healer not contributing to the party if they're not DPSing.
I ask of him to complete a dungeon with no Healer. His opinion that a Healers contribution is exclusive to their DPS, so i challenge him to complete that dungeon in a situation where there IS no Healer to contribute anything to the party. See how far he gets.
Hint: Not far.

[kidalutz]

You saying I'm promoting anything is your own narrative. I'm just stating an actual gameplay fact.

Facts dont work with these people in thier eyes it doesnt matter if nobody died if you didnt dps while you were saving the group form it's own mistakes you're just a crappy healer who needs to play something else.

[Xtrasweettea]

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

That's been done before. I think any group that has had a healer drop in DR Expert has experienced it. Heck, I have.

Back when Hell's Lid was part of Expert, and my first time in that dungeon, we did it. I was RDM with a DRK and MNK. The Healer DCd. So we did single pack pulls from the first boss to the final boss. New healer spawned by the time we got to the final boss. I was able to heal and DPS as RDM. Other than Erase, RDM only has GCD heals. We still managed to get through it in 20 minutes.

It's completely doable if the group adjusts.

inb4: "well you were RDM" or "doesn't count since that is an older story/not current expansion". For the first one, you didn't specify which tanks and which DPS. So RDM and PLD are on the table. Second, you didn't state which expansion this had to occur in.