SE needs to do more to help bad players

[Sylve]

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

A 0 dps healer would be fine in a high damage situation where people are dying, especially if they're new or learning. But if they're twiddling their thumbs for 30 seconds in an easy fight or spamming overheals on something the tank could effortlessly solo and refuse to contribute more because "Enix said I don't have to", while the other 3 players are going all out to the best of their ability, they absolutely deserve the boot.



You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

[Deathgiver]

Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

Have done so in the past on what was a less than week old expert dungeon, it really doesn't make that much difference in most dungeons, you just cant pull as much.

[Xtrasweettea]

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

That's been done before. I think any group that has had a healer drop in DR Expert has experienced it. Heck, I have.

Back when Hell's Lid was part of Expert, and my first time in that dungeon, we did it. I was RDM with a DRK and MNK. The Healer DCd. So we did single pack pulls from the first boss to the final boss. New healer spawned by the time we got to the final boss. I was able to heal and DPS as RDM. Other than Erase, RDM only has GCD heals. We still managed to get through it in 20 minutes.

It's completely doable if the group adjusts.

inb4: "well you were RDM" or "doesn't count since that is an older story/not current expansion". For the first one, you didn't specify which tanks and which DPS. So RDM and PLD are on the table. Second, you didn't state which expansion this had to occur in.

[Sylve]

That's been done before. I think any group that has had a healer drop in DR Expert has experienced it. Heck, I have.

Back when Hell's Lid was part of Expert, and my first time in that dungeon, we did it. I was RDM with a DRK and MNK. The Healer DCd. So we did single pack pulls from the first boss to the final boss. New healer spawned by the time we got to the final boss. I was able to heal and DPS as RDM. Other than Erase, RDM only has GCD heals. We still managed to get through it in 20 minutes.

It's completely doable if the group adjusts.

inb4: "well you were RDM" or "doesn't count since that is an older story/not current expansion". For the first one, you didn't specify which tanks and which DPS. So RDM and PLD are on the table. Second, you didn't state which expansion this had to occur in.

Good job on illustrating my point.
First, that someone in the party was required to Heal in some capacity. In this case, you on your RDM. Every outgoing heal you had slowed the run down.
Second, you were reduced to a single pull only snail pace.

Now recreate that scenario in your head, but answer me this: How far would you have gotten if you hadn't taken over the role of Healer?

And to make sure you understand what I'm saying, The entire point of the challenge was to demonstrate that a Healer in the party contributes to the success and speed of the run without ever casting a damage dealing spell.

[Xtrasweettea]

Good job on illustrating my point.
First, that someone in the party was required to Heal in some capacity. In this case, you on your RDM. Every outgoing heal you had slowed the run down.
Second, you were reduced to a single pull only snail pace.

Now recreate that scenario in your head, but answer me this: How far would you have gotten if you hadn't taken over the role of Healer?

And to make sure you understand what I'm saying, The entire point of the challenge was to demonstrate that a Healer in the party contributes to the success and speed of the run without ever casting a damage dealing spell.

If I didn't step in to heal, it would have been just a little dicier, but doable. Of course, DRK had its own healing tools as well. Do you want me to recreate this scenario without DRK using abilities like Abyssal Drain and Soul Eater as well?

Also, 20 minutes = snails pace? That's pretty good for basically three strangers adjusting.

And you completely missed what my scenario painted for you. If I am able to DPS and heal on RDM, it means that I had time to DPS without worrying about the tank sampling some fine Hell's Lid dirt. RDM doesn't have regens, it doesn't have shields, it doesn't have oCGD heals. So we are talking about raw heals that cost a good amount of MP. All I did is prove that for most of that dungeon, that someone on a Healer job is not necessary.


I can guarantee that people would rather take me on RDM than have a Healer that just heals and idles.

[WaterShield]

Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

I can absolutely do dungeons as a paladin with 2 DPS and no Healer. In fact I've solo'd the final boss of Amaurot before, as the other 3 players died to the first mechanic.

I should try going in premade with 3 DPS though. That'd be really fast ^.^

Seems clear to me that Square needs to delete healer