Alot of hate on new job iterations o.O

[Kabooa]

Yes it's funny how that works.

If you went to an alternate universe where polyglot worked that way - maybe cause instead of being a gauge element you get a one-time single charge upgrade of scathe to scathe IV that deals 750p (yeah it jumps 3 ranks what you gonna do about it) - I'm sure people would defend that design since they have nothing better to compare it to. That's why seeing the big picture is important to evaluate the design of a job objectively.

On that note, black mage is also useful as an example of job design done right currently, as evidenced by the universal acclaim it has received even from experts at the job. I hope it will at least teach more people what good gameplay looks like, so that they can point at it in the future when things go wrong elsewhere, instead of defending bad decisions. If you can understand why things like xenoglossy and umbral soul work well to keep the rotation smooth and flowing, then conversely you should be able to understand why other job changes produce the opposite effect elsewhere.

No, you misunderstand me.

I'm saying they could make that change tomorrow, and we'd get by, like we always did. Fairweather blackmages would go back to whatever DPS is 'the best' and those of us on still on it would adjust.

Let me be clear.

4.X Black Mage was also perhaps the best designed job of that expansion. Losing a stock of Foul but gaining the use of Xenoglossy moving into 5.0 would have been fine, as the real improvements were Despair, the level 72 trait, and the overall MP changes.

[Myon88]

I'm saying they could make that change tomorrow, and we'd get by, like we always did. Fairweather blackmages would go back to whatever DPS is 'the best' and those of us on still on it would adjust.

That's fine, it's good to be resilient. There are more than a couple summoner players I know who are sticking with the job too, despite this being the second expansion in a row the job has launched in an unfortunate state.

I am more concerned with the premise that the degree to which changes to job design succeed exist on a spectrum, and that you can objectively say that some are better than others. If you can see that my example of black mage is inferior to what we currently enjoy, then I think that demonstrates that premise. So I will continue to advocate for summoner, for the benefit of other people who are put off from playing a job they would otherwise want to play.

do you think we would be better off add Bahamut to DWT or separating Phoenix from FBT? Meaning that you use Trance, recast timer start and Demi-Primal is available right after trance end. In this way Trance would always be rolling like AF was in 4.0 and you could use Demi whenever you need rather than when FBT was back up. Seems like SE gave us two choose on how to make Demi summon work.

From a standpoint of designing a job to be tolerant toward combat downtime, there's no question that splitting up FBT and phoenix so that it matches DWT, is better than the reverse - merging DWT and bahamut so that it matches FBT. It is true that it will mean one extra button to press, but it would at least not be a new button since 'summon bahamut' could just transform into 'summon phoenix' after FBT ends.

As long as the trances share a button and the cooldown does not start again until you use the current one, there will always be pressure to activate DWT/FBT on cooldown to maximize damage. If you're in the DWT half of the rotation, then you only lose the deathflare at worst as bahamut is safely contained to a separate button. It's not even a guarantee that you'll lose that deathflare either, as you have up to 15s to stall for time while DWT is active. If it's phoenix, you're forced to enter phoenix trance and summon phoenix at the same time, so the potential loss is greater if the time is not convenient.

And as it happens, there are examples of both these cases in the current extreme primals.

1. In innocence ex, if you are on schedule with your trance timings, the 2nd phoenix trance of the fight happens halfway through the adds phase when innocence's ultimate is charging. If your group has high dps, they will die before you get your 2nd revelation off, and you will lose half the scarlet flames as well. Once upon a time you would just hit aetherflow there, and only summon phoenix after that phase is over and innocence returns, unfortunately we no longer have that option.

2. In titania ex, after the big adds die, there is a period of downtime while she plays out the animation for her ultimate. Dreadwyrm trance comes off cooldown just as this begins, and the correct move here is to use it now even though there's nothing to hit. Luckily, the transition is shorter than 15 seconds so you can quickly deathflare her once she returns without losing anything. If, by pure chance, it was FBT instead of DWT that aligned with this part of the fight, you would stand to lose a lot of damage from nothing but bad luck. It's not fun having it come down to luck as to whether fight timings will be kind to your rotation or not, but that's life for summoner now.

[Dyvid]

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Thank you for your reply. It helps not only us but also SE trying to figure out how to "fix" this glaring issue.

Separating Phoenix from FBT will be be visually painful because it would mean FBT would act like pre 80 and Demi-Phoenix will just be spitting fire and using revelations. If you move the spells to Demi-Phoenix phase than FBT is just DWT with another name. DWT has seen better days and really feels like a placeholder from a bygone era of FFXIV. Sadly SE isn't one to add new spells and abilities until the next xpac cycle, and sadly I think to make the job feel "right" they would need to add some things.

I guess I would say:

• Remove Demi-Phoenix from FBT and deal with spit fire.

• Allow Action to activate Wyrmwave and Scarlet Flame

• Add a 10% to 20% dps increase to Egi while in DWT

• Add a enkindle refresh effect in DWT and FBT so you can use it more often

• Improve and increase the potency of Enkindle, EAI and EAII

• Give Energy Drain/Siphon a max of two charges and make Aetherflow a 4 stack rather than 2

Maybe

• Change Fester and Painflare so that they share a recast timer and make that timer 20s. You could even give it a max charge of 3 making it feel like 4.0

• Have AF the resource to use EAI and EAII

[ShadowNyx3]

I'm saying they could make that change tomorrow, and we'd get by, like we always did. Fairweather blackmages would go back to whatever DPS is 'the best' and those of us on still on it would adjust.

This is an extremely condescending way to treat people who are just looking for something to enjoy. Calling someone "fair-weather" is nothing more than an attempt to justify the worth of your own dedication by putting down others. It's quite analogous to sports where fans of a team will deride people for being fair-weather when their team is terrible, while those "fair-weather fans" are simply not willing to waste their time and money on a team that's not providing them enjoyment. It's great if you can get by and stick with something til it eventually pays off because it will likely feel better when it does for having gone through the tough times, and you should enjoy that instead of worrying about what other people are doing for their own enjoyment.

Snip

You've definitely hit it on the head with how separating Phoenix from PWT would be the better route to a more manageable rotation. If Summoner is going to be plagued with a punishing potency drop from Ruin III to Ruin II and a plethora of off globals to press, the trances should be acting like BLM's Triplecast for movement and weaving, especially because they do not have damage buffs anymore. Of course everyone seems to love the current PWT and I myself would rather see unique Phoenix and Bahamut phases, so I think that the real focus should be on overhauling DWT into that movement and weaving tool it should be, without having to use it on CD for maintaining the core rotation.

[Kabooa]

This is an extremely condescending way to treat people who are just looking for something to enjoy. Calling someone "fair-weather" is nothing more than an attempt to justify the worth of your own dedication by putting down others. It's quite analogous to sports where fans of a team will deride people for being fair-weather when their team is terrible, while those "fair-weather fans" are simply not willing to waste their time and money on a team that's not providing them enjoyment. It's great if you can get by and stick with something til it eventually pays off because it will likely feel better when it does for having gone through the tough times, and you should enjoy that instead of worrying about what other people are doing for their own enjoyment.

You took too much from that.