Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?

[Nyoraii]

What you're asking for, as a general rule of conduct and a result therefrom, is fantastical at best.

Communication that neither pushes towards nor achieves a result is, definitively, wasted time and breath. Moreover, when the issue itself is inefficiency on the part of one person to the expense of the others' time--largely due to entitlement, in the cases we've been discussing here--how would attempting to placate an ego of, and offering up a pedestal to (as if one held the same power as three), someone who will most likely not change their actions somehow make things more efficient? That we wish it does not make it so. When the issue taken is with someone's inefficiency, expect people to deal with that problem... efficiently. That may mean pulling or kicking.

Again, we're talking about a situation where the party is able and (minus one player) wanting to do something. If it is acceptable, with few to no words, to kick and replace a member with a difference of playstyle, why should it be unacceptable to draw the one problematic member into the playstyle of the other three under the few words or none?

Three does not equal one, except when you let the one grandstand and the three treat themselves with only a third of the respect with which they treat the one. That is what you're asking.

That no action or no words spoken -- i.e. that no conflict is readily visible -- does not mean no conflict exists. There's a difference between contentment and silent irritation.


This advice would be more applicable to tanks who refuse to full-pull when the party wants to and is capable than the three being held back, whom you would limit to "only communicating".

Please, just read what you're writing, I can feel the arrogance in your words from miles away. You're assuming the people you're playing with won't hear your words or even answer without trying? How is that not arrogance? You know better than them?

And of course my advice is applicable to tanks who refuse full-pulls, it's applicable for any sort of team situations. If you have a problem, you talk about it and reach a common ground, you don't just go doing what you think is best because you know better than others. Now if after communicating you can't reach a consensus, then it's up to you what you want to do, kick the guy, leave the party, you're free to decide.

But what if the tank is not doing full-pulls because he's having a lag that started after he got in the dungeon? Would you start pulling for the guy without knowing his situation? Would you kick him for that if you knew?

Seriously, the lack of empathy is baffling.

[Doozer]

Try relaxing when you're not slowing down 3 other players- just a thought.

What does that even mean? Is going faster more relaxing for the tank? Or do you mean doing dungeons solo instead? Your comment is extremely vague and not helpful at all.

Though if you want the Fastest Run Imaginable, why are you using DF? People to claim to be in giant FCs with a million friends, so why are you expecting DF tanks to cater to your precious DPS needs every time? If you want a time efficient run, do it with people you know. When you use the DF you accept that not all players will conform to your playstyle and you'll just have to deal with it, especially when the one that doesn't play your way is the one leading the group.

[Machka]

I agree with this. Since it's suboptimal, the dps in question should be simply kicked instead after the trash pack in order not to encourage purposely playing badly in a team activity.

I know you're probably just joking, but I wanted to address this statement b/c I think there are some players that might unironically agree with this.

This sort of response to the points I made in my previous post is missing the point I was making. That being the fact tanks do suboptimal things that inconvenience other players all the time. The two examples I gave happen way more often than people pulling ahead of tanks, but generally dps/healer players don't sweat it too much b/c it's generally nothing more than an inconvenience. Yet it's usually only tanks that you see having meltdowns over minor inconveniences like this. The reason for that is a sense of entitlement that some tank players seem to have. A sense of entitlement that we have been shown examples of all throughout this thread.

As was already pointed out, kicking dps merely for doing something suboptimal would be akin to kicking a tank doing single pulls when double pulls would have been ok. Sounds a bit silly and elitist, right? That's because it kind of is.
To unironically agree with the above quoted statement without realizing/acknowledging that the same standard would also apply to tanks is exactly the sort of problematic perspective many people have when it comes to being a tank.

[Doozer]

Yet it's usually only tanks that you see having meltdowns over minor inconveniences like this. The reason for that is a sense of entitlement that some tank players seem to have. A sense of entitlement that we have been shown examples of all throughout this thread.

I think you need to know you're really only seeing what you want to see. I see DPS constantly having meltdowns because I don't pull the boss fast enough and they lose their combo or buff or something. Like oh no the dungeon will take an extra 30 seconds, better try to kick the tank over it. Meanwhile I hardly ever see tanks getting upset by things. So which one of us is right?

[Machka]

I think you need to know you're really only seeing what you want to see. I see DPS constantly having meltdowns because I don't pull the boss fast enough and they lose their combo or buff or something. Like oh no the dungeon will take an extra 30 seconds, better try to kick the tank over it. Meanwhile I hardly ever see tanks getting upset by things. So which one of us is right?

You see, that is the exact sort of warped mindset I'm talking about. A dps going ahead and attacking something to keep their stacks is not a meltdown. It's not even in the same galaxy as a tank stopping to type so they can assert their dominance, or even refusing to tank altogether like OP did (and many people in this thread have been saying they do too). You're the one seeing only what you want to see.

Do you mostly only play as a tank? If so, there's your answer as to why you might hardly ever see it. And as I said in a much earlier comment, if you are frequently seeing dps pull ahead of you that just means you are frequently going too slow.

Edit: Also, to respond to your last point, we're discussing this in a thread full of tanks talking about how they get upset by things. Some are even talking about how they respond to those sorts of situations by having a meltdown. Refusing to do your job as a tank and deliberately letting a party member keep aggro and die is having a meltdown. So how much either of us think we see it is kind of a moot point - this thread basically speaks for itself.

[Doozer]

You see, that is the exact sort of warped mindset I'm talking about. A dps going ahead and attacking something to keep their stacks is not a meltdown. It's not even in the same galaxy as a tank stopping to type so they can assert their dominance, or even refusing to tank altogether like OP did (and many people in this thread have been saying they do too). You're the one seeing only what you want to see.

Do you mostly only play as a tank? If so, there's your answer as to why you might hardly ever see it. And as I said in a much earlier comment, if you are frequently seeing dps pull ahead of you that just means you are frequently going too slow.

It truly floors me that your reading comprehension is so poor and you're so dead-set on this fantasy you've cooked up for yourself. I never said the DPS pulling something is a meltdown. I mentioned them trying to kick the tank because they can't be arsed to be in the dungeon for an extra 30 seconds. I'd quote that part for you, but I assume you read it since you quoted my entire post. Apparently not.

I've played as all roles, and I've actually tanked the least out of all of them. Yet still, I've seen entitled DPS more no matter what role I'm in. Fancy that.

Just as a preemptive time saver, don't bother arguing with me further if you're not going to read all of what you're quoting. You literally ignored a vital part of my statement in order to twist things to make you appear right. I believe that's called "cherry picking". Try not to do that anymore, okay?

[Shurrikhan]

What does that even mean? Is going faster more relaxing for the tank? Or do you mean doing dungeons solo instead? Your comment is extremely vague and not helpful at all.

Though if you want the Fastest Run Imaginable, why are you using DF? People to claim to be in giant FCs with a million friends, so why are you expecting DF tanks to cater to your precious DPS needs every time? If you want a time efficient run, do it with people you know. When you use the DF you accept that not all players will conform to your playstyle and you'll just have to deal with it, especially when the one that doesn't play your way is the one leading the group.

It means that your method of relaxation should not require irritating 3 other people in equal measure.

Going into content with the purpose of relaxing, rather than... completing the content, is the abnormal case. By your own warrant, DF would be at least as poor a fit for you.

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Doozer, the remainder of this has nothing directly to do with you. You needn't strain your eyes. It is merely based upon, and attempts to better inform, the assumptions in your quote above, because similar arguments have appeared multiple times throughout the thread.

Unironically, full pulls can easily be more relaxing, once you're used to them. Good play, like anything else seeking the path of least resistance, tends to consolidate over time into easily remembered expectations. This pull gets these CDs; next pull gets those. There's far less confusion, and far less in-the-moment decision making of any significant degree required. The "communication" is simply automatic: see this, do that. And let's not pretend that just because it's not spoken, it isn't communication, or that unspoken communication must somehow be unfriendly. I've had BLMs friend request me after a silent run (apart from one "lol" when I teased him with a juke into an AoE) just because I would position myself to AM taxi for every mechanic. I, in turn, have friend requested other party members for being particular aware of mechanics and uptime in a way that showed attention and interest in what I was doing and could accomplish. Many a close friend I've met from runs in which the communication was silent, but thick with attention.

Here's something that was fairly standard practice in ARR. I'll give it to you in a concrete example as to be more easily visualized.

Stone Vigil for the first time. Int and Mind have not yet been divided on gear. 3 mobs. First mob should take around 15-20 seconds to die. Having stutter-cast towards the next mob group, SMN and WHM arrive first. WHM has already Pre-Regened WAR and then precasts stone on lead (first tab) target, while SMN precasts Bio II (had a cast time). WAR arrives in time to Tomahawk lead mob just before the spells hit and MNK facepull range. MNK refreshes GL3 with Demo on a mob other than the lead mob, then ToDs both non-lead mobs. WHM Aeros lead, then the two other mobs. SMN uses Miasma and Bio, then Bane. If the first target is already at least half dead, the secondary target DoTed first is slept first and the other not slept; if not already half dead, it is slept last and both are slept. The low-DoT target is then focused down, then the one awake and with least DoT time remaining. Over this time, the SMN does the healing, because only some 1000 potency of healing would be necessary, the SMN still had as much Mind as the SMN and had the same healing-affecting traits, and Ruin did only about half of what Stone II would do, while at most requiring one further GCD to do all the healing needed.

Now, that sounds awfully complex, but it ultimately just came down to... "How do I not waste my allies' damage potential?" And despite using DF, I could get that practice done well, wordlessly, in more than a quarter of my leveling spams, and could teach it within a pull or two to anyone who'd listen mostly just through a bit of target marking, so long as they were attentive to more than just "I need to be putting out damage/healing/enmity" and actually thought about the context of the party.

So many here seem to be trying to discount useful awareness and engagement dependence upon prior spoken "communication", when in fact you can have so much more fun with a party when you don't take a meat cleaver to responsibilities and allocate whose right it is to make a given decision and just... do good play. But that requires people to have a mindset guided by "How do I better benefit the party?" over "What is the extent of my authority?" Communication for its own sake is neither at all meaningful nor inherently friendly. Being aware of others' good play in the course of your own, on the other hand, leaves you with a lot more to be friendly about.

I'm not saying we should run dungeons like optimized robots. I'm saying merely that not wasting others' time, and playing to the best of your abilities, can make runs feel a hell of a lot better, so... why should one play decidedly less well (and effectively experience less) than one can? And why should that unengaged play be the expectation or standard from which one should have to communicate or excuse themselves just to move beyond?

[Shurrikhan]

I agree with this. Since it's suboptimal, the dps in question should be simply kicked instead after the trash pack in order not to encourage purposely playing badly in a team activity.

Given the situation in question, the dps pulling probably isn't suboptimal; it may even force a positive change.

Moreover, a "team activity" only has actual team activity insofar as its teamwork results in increased efficiency. Etymologically speaking, teamwork must include both a team (those "bridled" together for a specific purpose) and work (output) directly owed to that arrangement. It must have teamwork in practice, not only in phantom ('respecting' this or that possible output or division of responsibility). If a task done as a group is less efficient than it being done individually, it is at best a mixed use of resources (sacrificing output as a future investment for some later group task); you have approached, but not yet reached, teamwork.

Team activity, the way you're using the term here, still is not some inherently good or sacred thing made through tangential etiquette or customs. If it does not help, it does not have value. You can consider that a callous statement if you like, but its why, when coordination with a group of people does help, it's actually worth valuing.

That last line in your picture is a nice way to look at things.

I've had that exact situation occur probably dozens of times if you include PotD/HoH; about a dozen otherwise. The inverse, having a DPS run away with it... only once.

On a Warrior, especially, it can be quite helpful for a ranged to collapse a distant mob into the line of your Overpower just before you pass by.

[Doozer]

(Wall of text)

I'm really not sure why you wrote an essay after telling me what someone meant. Like 90% of that is completely irrelevant to what was said. Sending friend requests? Old war stories about ARR? And what's with the fine print in the middle. I'm not squinting to read that. I just asked what a vague statement meant, jeez. Please Google what 'concise' means.

Please, just read what you're writing, I can feel the arrogance in your words from miles away.

I feel like this is very applicable to most of your responses here, Shurrikhan. A lot of 'explaining' to us simple people about teamwork and the definition of communication.

[Machka]

It truly floors me that your reading comprehension is so poor and you're so dead-set on this fantasy you've cooked up for yourself. I never said the DPS pulling something is a meltdown. I mentioned them trying to kick the tank because they can't be arsed to be in the dungeon for an extra 30 seconds. I'd quote that part for you, but I assume you read it since you quoted my entire post. Apparently not.

I've played as all roles, and I've actually tanked the least out of all of them. Yet still, I've seen entitled DPS more no matter what role I'm in. Fancy that.

Just as a preemptive time saver, don't bother arguing with me further if you're not going to read all of what you're quoting. You literally ignored a vital part of my statement in order to twist things to make you appear right. I believe that's called "cherry picking". Try not to do that anymore, okay?

Oh I'm ever so sorry that I've ruffled your feathers. Do accept my sincerest apologies for having not replied according to your lofty standards, my good sir. I did not realize that, in your magnificence, your time is so valuable that I am encouraged, nay, compelled to make sure you don't let a single minute of it go to waste whilst conversing on an electronic forum.

Anyways, sure yeah, I acknowledge I didn't respond 'kicking tank over wanting a dungeon to go 30 seconds faster' line. If that line is that important to you though, I'm happy to oblige.
In a nutshell - LOL I have never seen that happen before. What a silly idea. Just getting a tank kicked and replaced would take longer than 30 seconds, even if a replacement tank appears instantly and starts sprinting over from the checkpoint. Any players that truly cared about things going 30s faster would not waste time arguing - they would just continue killing things. And in any content where a tank isn't even necessary, players who care about going fast would just keep going. Because arguing over this kind of stuff in a dungeon wastes time.

So either you/those tanks you saw got kicked for something other than simply 'people wanted to go 30 seconds faster', or you're just making this up for the sake of trying to make your point. I didn't respond to that line b/c it was so ridiculous I didn't feel it warranted a response. If that was a vital part of your statement, I'm very sorry for your statement, but it now holds even less water than it did earlier. You can be as condescending as you like but it won't change the facts. I'm not even arguing with you. This entire thread is chock full of tanks who get upset over the minor inconveniences I was referring to. Just go and read them yourself. You do so value reading comprehension, right? :^)

And seriously though, that last line of yours is exactly the sort of imperious diva attitude many of us have been trying to point out here. It's not very healthy, and definitely isn't a good look.