Alot of hate on new job iterations o.O

[Sinh119]

Have you played Summoner in high-end content? Against a target dummy the class is fine, but it struggles heavily against other things, such as boss mechanics. On Titania especially, the bars get massively delayed, and the class is punished massively for any and all movement it has to do because of how limited its ruin 4s are compared to just how much movement it has.

Any movement that happens outside of DWT is massively punished, and movement during DB or DP is extremely punished as well, through no fault of the summoner regardless of how well you position or play. Simply because the pet will move before it autos, and it will drop auto attacks because of this.

The class lacks real flow, and it comes out most once it's introduced into boss mechanics and you realize just why certain mechanics ruin its overall flow, and 60% of the problem is from cooldowns desyncing, 20% from DP/DB dropping autos, and the rest from spamming way too many oGCDs.

Hell, if you played the class you'd realize the natural place to use devotion is during DWT, but if you do, your next devotion is guaranteed to be during FBT, when you literally cannot use it because DP is up, forcing you to save the cooldown.

You can like the class, you can have fun with it, but I can guarantee you that you're being personally affected by all of these issues regardless of whether you realize it.

Yes, I've cleared both Innocence and Titania EX multiple times. You say that you're massively punished for movement in those fights but I haven't noticed that at all. I'm able to consistently hit 10.5k-11k dps on those fights even if I'm forced to used Ruin 2 to move quite a bit. I think "extremely punished" is an over-exaggeration. You're punished, like you should since you are a caster, but it's not a dramatic enough punishment to massively gimp your damage output. You can make that claim, but that's been completely contrary to my own experience with the job.

I also don't think the class lacks flow in any way. I don't even understand what you mean when you say that the class lacks "flow". It has the exact same style as it did in Stormblood. The only difference is there are more oGCD's but you have more freedom on when to use them.

Why are you implying I didn't play the job? You can even look on FFLogs if you want proof. It's like we're not even playing the same job. I'm not experiencing any of the issues you're currently having with the job.

[TimeraiderGaranyi]

Happens every expansion. People have to get their bad experiences out.
Doubt anyone goes to the forums purposefully to write about how much they like a class, while most people will make a post/thread about the bad parts

[Xieldras]

Happens every expansion. People have to get their bad experiences out.
Doubt anyone goes to the forums purposefully to write about how much they like a class, while most people will make a post/thread about the bad parts

Well, at least there's quite a few threads giving good feedback about what works and what doesn't. About what could work and what should be changed; Suggestions about short term changes and long term reworks. Getting those bad experiences out asap is also good for the devs, as it tells them what needs to be changed or fixed for the next patches (if possible. Some things like an AST rework would have to wait till next expac for example).

The way I see SE work is they depend on data to see if a piece of content is popular (you only have to check Diadem and Eureka) while also taking complaints and threads into account. I don't exactly know how their interpret said complaints, but I would wager they at least notice the parts that people mention most (which is valuable information as it tells you what gameplay part needs to change or improve).

Negativity will always get more attention than positivity that's for sure, but talking both good and bad just brings more balanced feedback that is easier to digest in general.

[TcomJ]

Absolutely incorrect from a pure simple amount of utility abilities to the actual impact of said abilities overall.

BRD Utility:

Battle Voice- 3 min
Nature's Minne- 90 seconds
Trobadour- 3 min
Warden's Paen- 45 seconds

DNC Utility:

Standard Finish- Always on
Technical Finish- 2 min
Devilment- 2 min
Curing Waltz- 1 min
Shield Samba- 3 min

In terms of Personal and Raid DPS boosting, Standard Finish alone will provide more dps boost to the team over it's duration then Battle voice. Technical Finish and Devilment make it a laugher. Curing Waltz will provide much more healing potential in all but the most high level situations in raid when you sync up with your healers, which means the vast majority of players will never get anything out of it, especially since they doubled the cooldown and curing waltz being available more often. Shield Samba and Trobadour are the same ability entirely under different names. All bard has over Dancer in the utility department is Warden's Paen, an ability that hasn't seen any high level usage since silence was Removed from WAR's berserk rotation. Heck if they were going to prune any support ability from Bard, that should have been it.

Hold it right there: You intentionally twister certain info intentionally to suit your claims.

Trabadour (Bard)

=

Defense Samba (Dancer)

=

Tactician (Mch)

Don’t lie dude. Dancer has two more supports ability than bard and thats fine, but damcer mechanics are way more in tune with the theme.
While Bard isnt.

Also, those are all single target abilities except Battle Voice which has a cooldown as along ass 180 for 20 sec?
Yah right.

You dont sing to one person, oh look dancer has 3 teamwide abilities and 2 other buffs. What we sing to ourselves and only shout for 20 second every 3 min? What a joke. Or sing to one person in an instant.
They could have made those songs buff something else, change activation of duration or something. Why are people picking Bard amd want to change it to ranger?

The initial design is Bard NOT ranger. It’s super final fantasy to have a bard than ranfer.

[MerlinCross]

DRG (Level 71)- Still feels solid. Not having to worry about 3 eyes is great but flip side only Jump triggers it. Throws off my muscle memory a bit. Same with Heavy Thrust but this is something easily overcome with practice. DRG didn't change too much and even kept their party buffs. I'm glad to still have my jumpy boy but..., after ARR and 2 expansions of playing him maybe time to put him on the self.

NIN (Level 72)- Well I feel kinda... not happy. NIN kinda remains where we were with a new toy or two but still have some of the same problems(Clipping/Ping/Mudras) and we kinda didn't get stuff to compensate losing the aggro utility we gave to raids. Ninki gain is better I believe but our damage feels pretty low. Even with Trick attack. Feels like we're being held back due to TA and now possibly Bunshin later. I still find it fun but I question if parties might as me to switch classes during later raids I try out for. Hope to see it get some buffs.

SAM (Level 80)- I got into SAM maybe a month or two before Shadowbringers came out so I might be missing out on the year or so of play time others have. I'm actually kinda liking it. Flows pretty well and I'm not really noticing the 'less damage' complaint I see going around though I will say I don't parse or measure the damage. Hitting an enemy with Senei and 2 Setsugekka feels real good and cranks the damage numbers well enough for me to be hyped for the damage. I didn't really use Hagakure but do question it's outright removal and I think we have a pretty "Meh" level cap ability. Shoha seems just designed for Raid content and even then I'm looking over the 4 that just came out and trying to picture when I could use Meditation long enough to get more than 1-2 stacks. But I found it fun and fresh enough to do all of Shadowbringers with it.

[Rika007]

-snip-
The initial design is Bard NOT ranger. It’s super final fantasy to have a bard than ranfer.

I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from friend. I'm on your side. I want Bard to go back to more of a DPS/Support hybrid. I hate the current state of it's utility kit. I was responding to another person who said Bard had more utility then Dancer and informing them that is incorrect in not only how much impact the abilities have but also the actual number of support abilities the jobs have.

[Rika007]

3 of those are -damage boosts-.

I know some people like to say "Party Utility" when they really mean damage boosts, but that's damage. It's bottom line.

It's not utility.

You're being pedantic and trying to use different words that all boil down to the same usage. Utility in class based gaming has a very broad definition and can mean a hundred different things depending on who you ask and what game they primarily play. So let's make it simple. Utility = doing something in some way that contributes something to the success of the party that goes beyond your personal contribution. You can call that support. You can say that it goes beyond more then just one simple definition. But in the end all defensive and offensive buffs that you give out can be classified under that structure. And simply put Bard does not bring as much of that to the table as Dancer.

[NovaBismarck]

I will just quote an excellent summoner who usually leads up the rotations that we use as summoners and say that I agree: "Summoner is a buggy mess of a garbage job in 5.0 that takes a ridiculous amount of tedium to master. If that doesn’t sound like your idea of a good time, I recommend you wait a little bit to learn how to play Summoner." It's not in a great place and you can absolutely tell that by doing any kind of difficult content. The timing on the class and the flow is off. And the harder the content is, the harder you will work to sustain mediocre damage.

I have to call bs on that many people saying yes summoner is in a great place. I understand a handful of people are happy with it. However, not that many.

[HyoMinPark]

Even with Stormblood being so-so story wise it was still balanced amazingly well. The story and everything was done so well this expansion but job balance was a second thought.

EGI person, MNK, AST and BRD got absolutely butchered despite them being the best they ever were in Stormblood. It's kind of insulting what they did to them. The hate for their reworks is pretty justified.

You have an argument for AST being butchered—and maybe even MNK—but BRD plays exactly the same with more AOE power and an underwhelming level 80 skill. It lost a lot of its party utility, yes, but the gameplay did not change hardly one bit going from SB to ShB. I wouldn’t call it butchered in the same sense you would refer to AST being butchered.

That said, both AST and BRD had to be tweaked to some extent—AST’s Balance needed to be addressed, as did BRD’s power creep with crit scaling. I don’t think either warranted massive changes—certainly not AST’s: change Balance and things would have been better.

[Rika007]

You have an argument for AST being butchered—and maybe even MNK—but BRD plays exactly the same with more AOE power and an underwhelming level 80 skill. It lost a lot of its party utility, yes, but the gameplay did not change hardly one bit going from SB to ShB. I wouldn’t call it butchered in the same sense you would refer to AST being butchered.

That said, both AST and BRD had to be tweaked to some extent—AST’s Balance needed to be addressed, as did BRD’s power creep with crit scaling. I don’t think either warranted massive changes—certainly not AST’s: change Balance and things would have been better.

Agreed, I don't think any sensible BRD player thought that the passive crit buff wasn't more then a little OP and needed addressing. Same to be said that with the rework to MP and removal of TP that those abilities needed to go. And on top of all this, that Foe's was a sometimes clunky ability that could use cleaning up. Where most are probably differing is that the removal of these abilities were not properly compensated for. (Although we might all agree there was no obvious reason for Palisade removal). I certainly don't feel that the Soul gauge mechanic/Apex Arrow makes up for the massive parring down of our utility from a gameplay sense, and not even close from a job identity sense.

Had these abilties been replaced with a new mechanic that supported BRD's lore and it's identity as a DPS/Support hybrid, I'm sure BRD players would right now be feeling much more content with the current workings of the class. I still say that bringing Foe's back as a non casting OGCD on a 2 minute cooldown (no buffs to what it did, same 4.0 affect), and then going forward in future expansions expanding on the Soul gauge mechanic with more support abilities is the best route.

AST though... Yeah. A rework on the card was needed for sure. But not sure how they thought this was the way to go about it.