Alot of hate on new job iterations o.O

[Kabooa]

While BRD's gameplay is still relatively the same, the direction changed. Utility was heavily removed with no stand-in and getting new abilities to focus solely on DPS, which is against BRD's lore and original class concept (Red job support hybrid), means that BRD's identity was lost for ShB. To me this is effectively "butchered".

It has more utility than Dancer. It just doesn't have -damage- boosts.

[Rika007]

It has more utility than Dancer. It just doesn't have -damage- boosts.

Absolutely incorrect from a pure simple amount of utility abilities to the actual impact of said abilities overall.

BRD Utility:

Battle Voice- 3 min
Nature's Minne- 90 seconds
Trobadour- 3 min
Warden's Paen- 45 seconds

DNC Utility:

Standard Finish- Always on
Technical Finish- 2 min
Devilment- 2 min
Curing Waltz- 1 min
Shield Samba- 3 min

In terms of Personal and Raid DPS boosting, Standard Finish alone will provide more dps boost to the team over it's duration then Battle voice. Technical Finish and Devilment make it a laugher. Curing Waltz will provide much more healing potential in all but the most high level situations in raid when you sync up with your healers, which means the vast majority of players will never get anything out of it, especially since they doubled the cooldown and curing waltz being available more often. Shield Samba and Trobadour are the same ability entirely under different names. All bard has over Dancer in the utility department is Warden's Paen, an ability that hasn't seen any high level usage since silence was Removed from WAR's berserk rotation. Heck if they were going to prune any support ability from Bard, that should have been it.

[Kabooa]

Absolutely incorrect from a pure simple amount of utility abilities to the actual impact of said abilities overall.

BRD Utility:

Battle Voice- 3 min
Nature's Minne- 90 seconds
Trobadour- 3 min
Warden's Paen- 45 seconds

DNC Utility:

Standard Finish- Always on
Technical Finish- 2 min
Devilment- 2 min
Curing Waltz- 1 min
Shield Samba- 3 min

In terms of Personal and Raid DPS boosting, Standard Finish alone will provide more dps boost to the team over it's duration then Battle voice. Technical Finish and Devilment make it a laugher. Curing Waltz will provide much more healing potential in all but the most high level situations in raid when you sync up with your healers, which means the vast majority of players will never get anything out of it, especially since they doubled the cooldown and curing waltz being available more often. Shield Samba and Trobadour are the same ability entirely under different names. All bard has over Dancer in the utility department is Warden's Paen, an ability that hasn't seen any high level usage since silence was Removed from WAR's berserk rotation. Heck if they were going to prune any support ability from Bard, that should have been it.

3 of those are -damage boosts-.

I know some people like to say "Party Utility" when they really mean damage boosts, but that's damage. It's bottom line.

It's not utility.

[Raldo]

3 of those are -damage boosts-.

I know some people like to say "Party Utility" when they really mean damage boosts, but that's damage. It's bottom line.

It's not utility.

Would it help if people called it "party support"? Because I'm pretty that's what everybody means in this particular context. Any supportive action that affects one or more other party members, both damage and not-damage included.

I get where you're coming from, but I think you're in the minority here. "party utility" is generally going to refer to any and all supportive effects.

[Rika007]

3 of those are -damage boosts-.

I know some people like to say "Party Utility" when they really mean damage boosts, but that's damage. It's bottom line.

It's not utility.

You're being pedantic and trying to use different words that all boil down to the same usage. Utility in class based gaming has a very broad definition and can mean a hundred different things depending on who you ask and what game they primarily play. So let's make it simple. Utility = doing something in some way that contributes something to the success of the party that goes beyond your personal contribution. You can call that support. You can say that it goes beyond more then just one simple definition. But in the end all defensive and offensive buffs that you give out can be classified under that structure. And simply put Bard does not bring as much of that to the table as Dancer.

[NovaBismarck]

I will just quote an excellent summoner who usually leads up the rotations that we use as summoners and say that I agree: "Summoner is a buggy mess of a garbage job in 5.0 that takes a ridiculous amount of tedium to master. If that doesn’t sound like your idea of a good time, I recommend you wait a little bit to learn how to play Summoner." It's not in a great place and you can absolutely tell that by doing any kind of difficult content. The timing on the class and the flow is off. And the harder the content is, the harder you will work to sustain mediocre damage.

I have to call bs on that many people saying yes summoner is in a great place. I understand a handful of people are happy with it. However, not that many.

[Taranok]

I will just quote an excellent summoner who usually leads up the rotations that we use as summoners and say that I agree: "Summoner is a buggy mess of a garbage job in 5.0 that takes a ridiculous amount of tedium to master. If that doesn’t sound like your idea of a good time, I recommend you wait a little bit to learn how to play Summoner." It's not in a great place and you can absolutely tell that by doing any kind of difficult content. The timing on the class and the flow is off. And the harder the content is, the harder you will work to sustain mediocre damage.

I have to call bs on that many people saying yes summoner is in a great place. I understand a handful of people are happy with it. However, not that many.

As far as I can tell, the biggest problem I've seen are from summoners who are so good at the job that they basically don't understand what it's like to play the job in any way other than perfectly.

[Myon88]

As far as I can tell, the biggest problem I've seen are from summoners who are so good at the job that they basically don't understand what it's like to play the job in any way other than perfectly.

I'd be careful about framing it that way, because it gives the impression that good job design is a matter of subjective taste or something (it isn't). Or that it's okay to design a job around suboptimal gameplay, and veterans are just too set in their ways to appreciate shadowbringers summoner. The reality is that people good at this game (in whatever job) all understand the same few rules and axioms, and it feels good when the design of your job meshes well with these axioms. Some of these would be, for example,

1. Always keep your gcd rolling.
Gcds are unlimited sources of damage while cooldowns are not, so you'll maximize damage if you use them as much as possible and only use cooldowns when they don't interrupt gcds (hence, weaving ogcds between them). This is a big reason why whenever you have something that forces you to clip the gcd (like ninja mudras), people call it 'clunky' or unfun.

2. Powerful skills must be used as often as possible.
This seems obvious, because clearly you will maximize your damage if you use strong skills as much as possible. However it requires multitasking to keep track of these cooldowns in the heat of battle. An average player might forget to press them for a few seconds and not notice, they probably don't think they've made a big mistake anyway.

But good players notice. That's why combat downtime is a big concern when evaluating skills. For summoners, it is especially bitter because their abilities were downgraded in this aspect compared to stormblood. If a boss disappears or dungeon trash dies just before energy drain or phoenix comes off cooldown, you're penalized out of no fault of your own because you were unable to keep their cooldowns rolling - something you could do with aetherflow.

So yeah, you could deliberately triple weave or not use your cooldowns on time, but what purpose would that serve? They understand perfectly well, they just don't like it. This isn't really a matter of taste, it's an objective downgrade.

Since black mage is everyone's darling now, let me give a blm specific example of what they did to summoner:

Imagine if polyglot could not stack to 2, and worse, after it finishes its 30s charge, it does not continue to build toward the next charge - the gauge gets frozen and only restarts when you cast foul or xenoglossy. So, every 30s when polyglot finishes charging, you must use it immediately if you want the gauge to start again. If there's nothing to hit? Too bad. If you're in astral fire and can't spare the time? Too bad. No more double or triple fouls if you use them at just the right moment either.

Are you disgusted yet? Hey, I'm just an average black mage. Lining up a triple xenoglossy in trick attack is way too hard for me anyway. I just do my own thing without noticing what I'm missing, so I don't see anything wrong with this design.

[TcomJ]

Absolutely incorrect from a pure simple amount of utility abilities to the actual impact of said abilities overall.

BRD Utility:

Battle Voice- 3 min
Nature's Minne- 90 seconds
Trobadour- 3 min
Warden's Paen- 45 seconds

DNC Utility:

Standard Finish- Always on
Technical Finish- 2 min
Devilment- 2 min
Curing Waltz- 1 min
Shield Samba- 3 min

In terms of Personal and Raid DPS boosting, Standard Finish alone will provide more dps boost to the team over it's duration then Battle voice. Technical Finish and Devilment make it a laugher. Curing Waltz will provide much more healing potential in all but the most high level situations in raid when you sync up with your healers, which means the vast majority of players will never get anything out of it, especially since they doubled the cooldown and curing waltz being available more often. Shield Samba and Trobadour are the same ability entirely under different names. All bard has over Dancer in the utility department is Warden's Paen, an ability that hasn't seen any high level usage since silence was Removed from WAR's berserk rotation. Heck if they were going to prune any support ability from Bard, that should have been it.

Hold it right there: You intentionally twister certain info intentionally to suit your claims.

Trabadour (Bard)

=

Defense Samba (Dancer)

=

Tactician (Mch)

Don’t lie dude. Dancer has two more supports ability than bard and thats fine, but damcer mechanics are way more in tune with the theme.
While Bard isnt.

Also, those are all single target abilities except Battle Voice which has a cooldown as along ass 180 for 20 sec?
Yah right.

You dont sing to one person, oh look dancer has 3 teamwide abilities and 2 other buffs. What we sing to ourselves and only shout for 20 second every 3 min? What a joke. Or sing to one person in an instant.
They could have made those songs buff something else, change activation of duration or something. Why are people picking Bard amd want to change it to ranger?

The initial design is Bard NOT ranger. It’s super final fantasy to have a bard than ranfer.

[Rika007]

-snip-
The initial design is Bard NOT ranger. It’s super final fantasy to have a bard than ranfer.

I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from friend. I'm on your side. I want Bard to go back to more of a DPS/Support hybrid. I hate the current state of it's utility kit. I was responding to another person who said Bard had more utility then Dancer and informing them that is incorrect in not only how much impact the abilities have but also the actual number of support abilities the jobs have.