If you thought the healer DPS debate would change with the change...

[Muuhnkin]

I've kicked plenty of healers for not DPSing and I will continue doing so.

If I see you idling in a fight when there's no healing required and you could deal some damage instead of sitting there, I will vote kick you the second I get the chance.

I've already had a couple of healers sit for a good 30 seconds or more idle without there was no healing needed at all and they were on max MP as well with lucid ready to be used.

I'm glad I'm not on your datacenter anymore.
You sound like a tank I met once in a dungeon, similar name. Was just there to troll, broken gear and pulled everything.
Pushed all the blame on the healer.

[AmeliaVerves]

This indicates either our healing potency is way too strong or the overall damage we receive is way too low
We don’t have to push to the extreme where only top tier player able to heal through content. We just need push the intensity to a level where majority of players will have much higher healing uptime. I believe our players base skill level is more a bell shape standard deviation rather than the M shape model. In such case we would have majority of players spending more time in healing and top tier player still find room to dps, and being top tier I think they already have the mind set of pushing to the limit
I believe that the meta of heal dps is more to do with “nothing to do”. With this change, even DF would be less boring. It just feel so wrong all I need to do is cast a regen or occasion oGCD heal when boss drop a tank buster, while casting dps skill most of the time

HoT will become more sustain heal or buying healing time for incoming big dmg, or even just some cast and forget skill anyone making minor error in the run, while oGCD would turn into emergency heal, and we could using more GCD heal

Currently running my AST I feel like a weak dps with some healing ability. This is not the type of healer I remember back in 2.0 when even Titan hard mode feel like a threat

I already gave my opinion on this so I'm just going to quote myself here and underline the important part:

The skill gap in this game is basically too big to make it highly healing intense, because in the end the very good players will always find ways to DPS and other players will try to get there too/expect others to get there, which will lead to rude players demanding healers to dps.
In the end nothing will change, imho.

Ofc healers are dpsing bc they don't have anything else to do, but that's not the major problem people have in this thread. It's the demanding stance some rude ppl have torwards healers "having" to dps and as I said: No matter how hard the healing requirements will become, this will not change at all.

[ForteNightshade]

The skill gap in this game is basically too big to make it highly healing intense, because in the end the very good players will always find ways to DPS and other players will try to get there too/expect others to get there, which will lead to rude players demanding healers to dps.
In the end nothing will change, imho.

Define rude, because plenty of people think being told to DPS in and of itself is considered rude; the whole "don't tell me how to play my job" mentality. Regardless, the expectation for healer DPS would be substantially less if healing were actually intense in this game. Look no further than WoW. People will actively tell healers not to healer due to how much triage occurs. Even this game was initially rooted in that same mentality, and only shifted to the healers should DPS philosophy when groups realized how much downtime healers had.

Most people demanding healers to DPS only care that healers are actively pressing buttons. Very few would care if 80% of their casts were on heals or buffs because at the end of the day, they're actively contributing something. Instead, with how FFXIV is designed, if you aren't DPSing, you're standing around literally doing nothing. That's what draws such ire in the community, especially when people defend that "playstyle."

[Alphras]

Where does this demand come from? I never saw this voiced in game, even on runs with zero damage healers. No matter if dungeons or savage pugs.

The only demand I know of comes from meta groups, but I am pretty sure most people in this thread are not doing any speed kills whatsoever. So that is irrelevant.

[AmeliaVerves]

Define rude, because plenty of people think being told to DPS in and of itself is considered rude; [...]

Asking a healer to dps once is fine, but repetedly pushing a person to do so is rude imo. If the healer reacts and says something, fine, if he chooses to ignore you, you can either kick him or just shrug and move on with the dungeon.

For clarification I'm talking about casual content here, dungeons, NM trials, NM raids, 24-man raids and to some extent even EX trials.
I just stopped bothering about other healers dps tbh. They throw out a ton? Cool! We getting quick clears. They don't? Guess I have more time dpsing while they're keeping the party alive.
Either way all that counts for me is getting through the content at hand.
(obv that doesn't apply for my static, but even when im doing savage in PF I really don't care that much anymore. I might rant about it on voice with my friends, but that's all.)

Where does this demand come from? I never saw this voiced in game, even on runs with zero damage healers. No matter if dungeons or savage pugs.

The only demand I know of comes from meta groups, but I am pretty sure most people in this thread are not doing any speed kills whatsoever. So that is irrelevant.

^ Literally this!

[Yuyuka3]

They will never lock healers out of DPSing in group content because they%u2019re smart enough to realize there would be a riot over it.

They only have to look at what happened this time when took away some, not even all, skills, then imagine what would happen if they took them all, to see how dumb that would be of them xD

[Dualblade]

They only have to look at what happened this time when took away some, not even all, skills, then imagine what would happen if they took them all, to see how dumb that would be of them xD

Look on the bright side, they finally managed to make the "needed" role be something other than tanks for more than a minute.

[Beelhi]

After reading 8 pages of more text, all I can say is at this rate, the way yoshi has stated his input, and how healers skills changed, I absolutely will not be surprised when/if they fully remove/lock healers ability to dps in group stuff lol.
Don't get me wrong, I'll dps. I have no problem with that. But it's the cruel and toxic players trying to "force* healers to dps that are gonna bring it down on everyone.

But it's not cruel to force players to carry a healer that's literally AFK 70-80% of the dungeon if they don't dps, considering the tiny amount of healing that actually needs to be done?
If the healer doesn't dps, and stands still waiting for damage 80% of the time I consider them AFK and will kick them.
Throw out a few stones here and there, or ruin or whatever I'm fine. I still consider them lazy but there is no reason to kick them.
Spamming cure on a full HP tank, spamming Medica II on a full HP party, then they're a bad player, but unless them constantly casting heals leads to going oom in seconds and people dying, I will kick you because you're disrupting my gameplay (and yes, it has happened a bunch of times that a duty times out because we died so often due to the spamming healer being oom constantly)

[LariaKirin]

This discussion is so silly. You all talk about the same thing, but you each have your own context in mind.

In any given fight, the amount of healing you do depends on the players in your group.
In any given fight, healing can be anywhere between scripted to completely unpredictable, depending on the players in the group.

I don't think the "Focus on healing" side is saying you should idle when there is no damage going out.
I don't think the "Focus on dps" side is saying you should dps as if you're fighting the enrage timer of a savage fight.
Reducing the other side to their extreme is pointless and stupid.

This idle healer thing is a rarity. What I've generally found is that healers who "focus on healing" tend to adapt to their group as the dungeon progresses. If people are not taking unnecessary damage, they usually start DPSing.
The times I see it happen with any relevant frequency, is with sprouts who are just getting used to the controls and are not used to focusing on multiple things at the same time. If you get mad that a sprout healer who's been playing for 2 days is idling in Sastasha, I don't know what to say to you.

Here's a statement I think reasonable: in any given fight - heal what needs to be healed, dps when you're comfortable doing so.

Here's some general advice to healers having trouble with DPS uptime: in the vast majority of content mechanics are fairly spaced out - you do not need to heal immediately after damage comes out. Once you've healed, it's generally safe to start dpsing.


Finally, healers seem to be singled out in this sort of discussion. So here's a few random statements:

If you're a DPS pulling 6k, you have no business complaining about your healer pulling 2k.
If you complain about the healer pulling 2k but not about the DPS pulling 6k, you're applying double standards.
If you complain about the so-called "idle healer", but not about their DPS/Tank equivalents, you're applying double standards.

Some people perform better or worse than others due to factors that are too many to list. That is the reality of duty finder. Deal with it or get some friends.

[Misutoraru]

I already gave my opinion on this so I'm just going to quote myself here and underline...

I am just sort of using this debate and hijack it to tune the healing to be more intense and may be the general player base will shift their focus to something else, but I agree the “forcing”’mentality is toxicated.

My stance is clear in this topic, I will dps when I feel comfortable and I don’t like being force, as I will not force other heal to do it. queue up with 3 or even 7 complete strangers, it is absolutely understandable someone want to be caution. If my party dps is not low and not clearing stuff fast enough, it is not hard to ask the healer if she/he feel comfortable to do some dps. In most of the case I rarely see healer go complete idle even for spout. I don’t understand why communication seem to be a lost art in MMO nowadays