Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[QT_Melon]

My view on that:

To counter below.

Because she does not behave like normal primals do. She does not force people to be her servants, heck even those with the echo dont need to do her thing.

Echo is not really a gift of Hydaelyn. So not sure why that would be the argument. There are quite a few primals that behave differently, Ramuh being one of the biggest ones. Alexander was another.

And she is really old.

Not sure why old is an argument either Zodiark is older. The reason Zodiark even needed more power is because it was to keep to the demands of restoring the world. It's been said multiple times Primals need the aether to do so. Even Hydaelyn was born from the very same sacrifice.

Maybe they found another way on how she can sustain herself without causing problems..because otherwise those summoners were idiots too..

How, exactly when they also sacrificed themselves to create her? Sounds like the same methods but different "thoughtform" to be an opposite force for Zodiark. The one thing she set up for herself to keep herself in power was to create the reflections and sundering of souls. The Ascian opposition has been there since the beginning. It wasn't something suddenly bestowed because we were asked to eliminate them when we became a certain age.

And maybe a bad example but still one for me: Minfilia got her power, she was one with her, knows about everything and was even her voice for a time and yet is still on her side.

Being an Avatar/emissary doesn't equate to knowing everything or was bestowed that knowledge. She was a mouthpiece.

All of this could of course be wrong and she could just be something evil..but other than one time not being 100% truthful to us, she has been shown as good.

I don't think Hydaelyn is "evil" in the sense that she's your regular villain, but I don't think either employment of primals will be beneficial in the long run. I think if anything the WoL/D is basically the failsafe.

[Kallera]

Purely semantics. If you divide a piece of A4 paper in half, you've created two A5 pieces.
Without the act of 'division' there'd be no world, now there's 14.

But you do NOT have two A4 pieces of paper.
and these are not 14 fully separated worlds, as they are all still tied to the source.

[Kreyd]

I am going to rewatch all of the ShB (and Crystal Tower) cutscenes before I join the discussion, but there was one thing, that I didn't quite understand. The Warriors of Light of the first shard caused the flood of light by striking down someone called the "Shadow King" (I don't know how it was called in english, sorry), which was probably an Ascian.

How does striking down an Ascian cause a flood of light? Are Ascians something like a dark pole that are necessary to balance things out? Does a flood of light automatically emerge, if there is nothing that causes darkness/chaos anymore? Was this all part of the Ascians plan?

[Zackneifein]

I am going to rewatch all of the ShB (and Crystal Tower) cutscenes before I join the discussion, but there was one thing, that I didn't quite understand. The Warriors of Light of the first shard caused the flood of light by striking down someone called the "Shadow King" (I don't know how it was called in english, sorry), which was probably an Ascian.

How does striking down an Ascian cause a flood of light? Are Ascians something like a dark pole that are necessary to balance things out? Does a flood of light automatically emerge, if there is nothing that causes darkness/chaos anymore? Was this all part of the Ascians plan?

In fact, Emet-Selch plan was to let one of his subordinates provoke and fight them and let him be beaten so well that it broke the balance between light and darkness, causing the Flood of Light.

[smartazjb0y]

I'm not sure if it's been touched on, but regarding something in the final dungeon:

Obviously Emet-Selch is narrating the fall of Amaurot the entire way, but while there are voiced and unvoiced text bubbles of his commentary that are labeled as his voice, there's also other messages as notification text that I don't think appear in the chat log. Is there anything to indicate what those are? The WoL's observations? Some part of the Ancient bleeding in? Crystal Mom?

They don't show up in the chat log but they're actually the names of the zones within the dungeon (you can see them when you open the dungeon map). As for what they actually are, it's an interesting question that I don't know the answer to. I like the idea that they're some part of our old Amaurotine self bleeding in and "responding" to Emet-Selch's dialogue

10 characters

[Cont13]

Regarding Varis, Zenos and Gaius

Whiplash surrounding expectations for both Varis and Zenos aside, the latter's actions and words have the potential to change the world as we know it even outside of what he has in mind for us.

The Emperor is dead. Again. But his murderer has no interest in the throne, or even the nation as a whole. Neither of them had another obvious successor. Our knowledge of the extended family is thin, and the previous contender is likewise disposed of.

If the result of Emet-Selch Solvus's death was nearly civil war, even with Varis and his immediate kin in line, this is a disastrous turn for Garlemald.The Empire was already under pressure from without, and now everyone with influence will add more from within. How many were intimately aware of Varis's plans? Are there still people unawares who are carrying his orders out? Did Gaius's group successfully account for *everything*?

Which opens up a few options. The first is that Gaius takes over, despite knowing the breadth of what's been happening and openly attacking Zenos at the end (with conveniently omitted results). He has the conviction to lead and genuine love for the nation and its people, but will his former peers tolerate the sudden rule of a legatus who ostensibly failed in his conquest of Eorzea, went rogue and was even justifiably believed to have died? If he does secure power, will his stance regarding the subjugation of other nations remain the way it was? He hasn't ouright disavowed his previously expressed beliefs, only bemoaned the role that Ascians played in helping foster them. Does he suddenly commit fully to the Cause™ and make peace with all, making Garlemald an ally of the Alliance?

Or, for any number of reasons, he fails to claim the throne. Assuming the legates of the VIth, VIIth, XIVth (and XIIth?) haven't been replaced, there are still potentially up to ten more that are going to be eyeing either a claim and/or whoever intends to make one, to say nothing of the various political establishments like the Populares. The best case scenario is another period of protracted internal struggle that produces a leader with enough clout to hold it all together.

The other options range from long-term civil unrest to outright civil war and schism, both of which have short- and long-term implications for Garlemald's neighbors. A hotbed of chaos as anyone and everyone pulls in every direction to try to make the most out of the big moments. A period wherein anyone with the means and motive will do what they can to get what they want. The situation in which people who have their hands on things like weapons of mass destruction decide whether to use them or not.

The kind of environment that Ascians thrive in.

And there's one left who's still holding a lot of the cards, who's privy to everything going on both there, the First, and everywhere in between. Who's already planning something, even if what he's scheming didn't ed up doing him too many favors the first time around.

Despite everything, this is Elidibus's moment. To capitalize on the unprecedented mess that both his allies and enemies have allowed to spill out around them. It's Gaius's moment to find out where his fate truly lies. Zenos's moment to make an inordinately large impact on the history of Man as most people understand it, achieving the same goal his father envisioned without even truly caring about it beyond allowing him his one joy.

[Alleo]

About hydaelyn:

In the end, Hydaelyn acts for hydaelyn’s interests, not the world. In setting about her own goals, her actions bear the result of damaging the star grieviously as well. At least that is what I got from the results of this story. In order for the people of this world to be truly free of the ruinius meddling of false deities, Hydaelyn needs to removed from its position. Even if it sounds like she is a being that has “learned the lesson”, she comes away from it still being an bad actor on the affairs of people. Roping people in with only enough so that they may get things done for her.

About Hydaelyn

How do you know she only acts in her own interest? First if the is truly at the basic a primal then they are formed in the view of the summoners. After Zodiark I would be quite sure that they would not summon another being that is against their life. Heck maybe their plan even was to shatter the world so that something like that can never happen again.

We know her view from Answers where she is kind but not understanding why we still fight. But her words in this are that we should move forward. Her actions to protect us has weakened her quite a lot, so much that she needed Minfilia to even be able to talk. As soon as she was able to she gave Minfilia free, together with a huge power to protect the first shard. Why would she do that if it was only about her? Yes one could argue that one more rejoined shard would bring Zodiark even closer to being awake, but she could have used the power jsut for herself too. Yet she did everything to help them and as we know she was not the one starting the flood either.

In the end quite a bit of the remaining Ancient ones decided to summon her. Gave her the power to split things like that. Maybe it was their view that it would be better to live like that, so that future generations can have their chance..something which would not happen under Zodiark and his constant sacrifices.

Life might not be great for the remaining Ascians, but is it bad for the people?

Also what people did she truly rope into this? People with the echo are free to do whatever they want. Its us who decides if we help her or not. Even Minfilia could have just walked on, on that day and would have never gotten to her. She has no deep reach into our world and before Minifila even had no emissary either. We are helping her out of our own believe.

To counter below.

Echo is not really a gift of Hydaelyn. So not sure why that would be the argument. There are quite a few primals that behave differently, Ramuh being one of the biggest ones. Alexander was another.


Not sure why old is an argument either Zodiark is older. The reason Zodiark even needed more power is because it was to keep to the demands of restoring the world. It's been said multiple times Primals need the aether to do so. Even Hydaelyn was born from the very same sacrifice.


Being an Avatar/emissary doesn't equate to knowing everything or was bestowed that knowledge. She was a mouthpiece.

We do not know exactly what the echo is right now or where it came from. Is it something that every ancient one had? But if that is the case, why does not everyone on the source has it either? The limited amount of people having this gift could well point out that this was received by the souls of those that summoned either Zodiark or Hydaeyln. But unlike the Ascians who tell us that they are tempered, we do not know the same about us. At least nothing right now truly indicates that we are.

My point with being old: In the short amount of time that Alexander was summoned (who is not an elder primal like the crystals) they already feared that he would turn the country into an wasteland. How would the planet still exist if Hydaelyn constantly needed huge amount of aether? The calamities are quite a bit apart and we do know that the shards are not "eaten" by her but that the force of the crack in the source after a calamity would cause it. She is also losing the battle with each rejoining and with each death WoL. She is so weak after shielding us from Ultima that she cant even speak to us directly anymore. How is all that possible without sucking the planet dry? Maybe we find out that she might get some part of aether from us when we die (maybe our memories?) but until then we simply dont know how she can sustain herself. I would dare and say that these ancient ones would not do the same mistake again, that others did with Zodiark.

Minfilia herself said that she was one with Hydealyn and learned the truth. And she had at least enough knowledge to know that Ardbert needs to be saved for us. That sounds to me like someone that at least know quite a bit more than we do.

[Cilia]

On the point of Hydaelyn -

Her entire existence is predicated on protecting the mortal races from the machinations of the Ascians and Zodiark. She was conceptualized and summoned entirely because some of the ancient Ascians didn't want to sacrifice yet more to Zodiark and wanted instead to protect the budding mortal races that had sprung up after the fall of Amaurot.

Hydaelyn's entire existence, her raison d'etre, is protecting the mortal races. Regardless of her existence as a primal, it is impossible to construe her as malevolent from our perspective.

That does mean, however, that she needs to use some mortals to achieve her goals. Hydaelyn seems confined to the aetherial plane (not actually summoned), so the danger she poses to the world is minimal; however this also means she needs mortals to act in her stead to actually do anything on the material plane, as intervening there drains enormous amounts of her energy.

[QT_Melon]

Some more counters.

About Hydaelyn]We do not know exactly what the echo is right now or where it came from.

That was my point. You put in your post that Hydaelyn gifted us with echo. I said that's not the case. At least Hydaelyn the primal

Hydaelyn constantly needed huge amount of aether?

They apparently ONLY need huge amounts of aether to do certain acts requested of them. Now, Hydaelyn may have been at a disadvantage if say Zodiark had more aether, but it also appeared he wanted aether to do the acts requested/in exchange. That isn't to say there wasn't an alt motive for Zodiark wanting more aether. But if it were the case that he wanted to consume all the aether it would extinguish him and the planet as well which defeats the purpose of being summoned in the first place. Not saying that either won't do it eventually, however.

Its interesting she split and sundered everyone, making a pretty interesting life cycle...ie like split pieces of our soul are seeds...but it's possible eventually you can split the seed so many times before you can use it anymore, so I'm curious.

Minfilia herself said that she was one with Hydealyn and learned the truth. And she had at least enough knowledge to know that Ardbert needs to be saved for us. That sounds to me like someone that at least know quite a bit more than we do.

The same "truth" acknowledged earlier wasn't exactly the truth? *headscratch* She obviously should have been aware she didn't come into existence first. That should have been the first thing she told us...the fact she didn't.

I mean again I suspect the WoL probably thought both sides weren't feasible and split off from both factions using primals. Eventually got sundered so lost the memory. This is just entirely theory. Both sides had good intentions but were heavily flawed, imo. It may also be why we have an irresistible urge to slay primals in general

Also wanted to state a point in another rebuttal you grouped in with mine. Since this isn't exactly a Shadowbringers spoiler: Hydaelyn is not weakened so much by trying to help us, but her power state is weakened because of calamities so it's by proxy and in her interests. Because from what I gather from understanding the situation, each calamity is a convergence. So it's probably putting her back to power levels prior to the Sundering- not that I am exactly enthused by the loss of life.

[Lauront]

Despite everything, this is Elidibus's moment. To capitalize on the unprecedented mess that both his allies and enemies have allowed to spill out around them. It's Gaius's moment to find out where his fate truly lies. Zenos's moment to make an inordinately large impact on the history of Man as most people understand it, achieving the same goal his father envisioned without even truly caring about it beyond allowing him his one joy.

Agree on all that.

You can tell that in spite of all the obstacles he has now faced, Elidibus is more determined than ever.

As an aside, I'm intrigued by what this "Emissary" title of his truly amounts to, though. He's held it since before Zodiark was even summoned, and the way he refers to it, he places an emphasis on being able to direct the course of events. Maybe he just means having the sort of influence on events expected of an ambassador, as he may once have been.

The interesting factor here is that the alternative timeline might be persisting (as the Exarch believes it possibly might be, in the event that he's not simply etched himself onto some new block of history) because the threat which resulted in the 8th Umbral Calamity has not actually been removed. Butterfly effects and such aside, coupled with Elidibus's threat to keep the "WoD" mired on the First, apparently embroiled with "Warriors of Light", I'm curious to see what he has planned and whether the Calamity is truly averted until the WoL manages to evade whatever he has planned. We don't know that Varis was actually the one to use the Black Rose, and if Elidibus does a good job on the First, he may yet ensure the Flood returns, enhancing Black Rose's potency once more on the Source.

He lacks Hades's insight into the WoL's true nature (although I'm still not sure if Hades fully internalised it, incredulous as he was), but knowing that Arbert was not particularly effective against you, he may have something else planned than the obvious "round up all the WoLs on the remaining shards." It does tie in with Elidibus's comments to Unukalhai in the Warring Triad commentary on Sophia, regarding his fluidity of stance (in order to bring about the results he desires.)

Then, onto Zenos, although he may want to subjugate one of the gods, he still has to reach them. One is dormant, so perhaps he'll want to see to their re-awakening, yet in the other's case, she's nestled in the Aetherial Sea, which is notoriously difficult to enter, much less navigate. Unless they're planning on putting Construct 7 and its considerable teleportation powers to use, given that it was acquired by Gabranth, I'm wondering how he intends to pull this off since one is dormant for now and the other... unreachable. And in either case, there is the risk of you getting in his way. If he's aiming at grafting himself onto Zodiark and succeeds at it, at a minimum a shard will have to fall, although SE could always pull some tricks making use of the alternative timeline.

I agree with all your comments on what could come of the Empire, and I think this will be Gaius's moment to prove himself - will he really make a good Emperor, and bring about a just rule over the Empire under the ideals he held to, or will the storm that is coming overwhelm him, especially now that he is in the underdog position.

I'm interested to see where it'll all go and how it'll play out.

They apparently ONLY need huge amounts of aether to do certain acts requested of them. Now, Hydaelyn may have been at a disadvantage if say Zodiark had more aether, but it also appeared he wanted aether to do the acts requested/in exchange. That isn't to say there wasn't an alt motive for Zodiark wanting more aether. But if it were the case that he wanted to consume all the aether it would extinguish him and the planet as well which defeats the purpose of being summoned in the first place. Not saying that either won't do it eventually, however.

Its interesting she split and sundered everyone, making a pretty interesting life cycle...ie like split pieces of our soul are seeds...but it's possible eventually you can split the seed so many times before you can use it anymore, so I'm curious.

More interesting would be the excuse for it, in addition to then shrouding the very act itself in mystery, by intention, as Elidibus hints at. Unless SE wants to go down the very predictable and dull route of "Zodiark bad", it's an action with significant downsides and costs.... and you can understand why the Ascians refuse to abide by it. As much as it'd disappoint the people who need Hydaelyn to be some font of goodness and Zodiark/the Ascians to be the source of all evil TM, I personally find that a rather dull take, which about a million other fantasy games besides this has already gone down. The game isn't built to accommodate two-faction play, so at the least I'm hoping for her summoning to also have been an error but one with which we're now forced to contend as a fait accompli. Alas, I am already sensing that they will shoehorn some justification in for it, given who the WoL potentially is, so I hope I'm wrong.