Soooo... Shadowbringers Monk

[Neoyoshi]

As long as they keep giving me fighting moves based off of Streetfighter abilities, i'll be happy with just about anything they do; i can easily adapt, and since this is the only Combat role i even play- i doubt anything drastic would phase my enjoyment of playing the Monk.

[lyndwyrm]

I've been thinking about 6SS for just about a month at this point trying to find any instance it would be really worth using. Yes there is a 1 GCD window as a boss is about to jump where you could use 6SS and/or TK, but those still occur (in the content I typically play) infrequently. Timing the windows that do exist is another whole pain, because not all of them have an obvious wind-up or warning, and for those, missing by a single GCD with even our old potencies would make 6SS a dps loss, even more so now. Further, it really isn't that useful given:

• We have form shift to get to couerl form if we're expecting to recover quickly after a break
• We have meditate to "charge" damage for several seconds in downtime
• The addition of Anatman means we can keep GL for a very long time in static breaks (without pushes, zone changes, necessary movement)
• Worst case scenario in most of 4.0 was a few GCDs with PB for getting GL back up (with PB being only a 60s cooldown).

So I've also been thinking of things that I think would be more interesting to replace it.

• A DoT, like Touch of Death
• A longer cooldown weaponskill, like others introduced in this expansion and Empyreal Arrow previously
• An ability that grants all the fist stance effects for a period of time
• A weaponskill that allows a following skill to be of any form, and then proceed from that form as per usual

[EbonySeraphim]

I haven't seen how the other DPS jobs changed relative to Monk, but it seems like 5.0 Monk got buffed in a way that no one is pointing out since the 5.0 patch notes are out. Bootshine got a massive buff from 150 -> 300 potency with Leaden First. On top of this, Leaden Fist lasts 30 seconds so you can get 4 Bootcrits on while it's active and you don't have to worry about dropping it briefly because Leaden Fist only matters for the Bootshine buff. This weaponskill buff becomes the undisputed strongest, direct damage weaponskill for Monk even if the others (True Strike and Snap Punch) also crit. I don't count critical Demolish because you wouldn't spam it even if you could. To me, it seems that Monks now want to spam Bootshine with full buffs during perfect balance and exit with Six-Sided star to keep GL3/4. This may explains why Perfect Balance was bumped up to a 120s cooldown. If it was 60 seconds, then every other Leaden Fist buff you could use PB just to spam Bootshine. At level 80 Anatman can be used effectively to maintain GL3/4 during any fight and Perfect Balance is soley used for DPS burst.

I think the other reason I'll enjoy Shadowbringers Monk more is because they put more of the damage on the weaponskills rather than normal attacks and oGCDs (removal of Howling Fist). Monk sort of lost 10% potency across the board without blunt resistance from the Dragon Kick change, but this was more than put back into substantial weaponskill potency increases. We will be regularly seeing skill damage numbers that aren't too far behind other single target heavy hitters I think, but ours will happen more often.

[lyndwyrm]

I haven't seen how the other DPS jobs changed relative to Monk, but it seems like 5.0 Monk got buffed in a way that no one is pointing out since the 5.0 patch notes are out. Bootshine got a massive buff from 150 -> 300 potency with Leaden First. On top of this, Leaden Fist lasts 30 seconds so you can get 4 Bootcrits on while it's active and you don't have to worry about dropping it briefly because Leaden Fist only matters for the Bootshine buff. -snip-

I'll find out in a few minutes, but I was under the impression Leaden Fist was removed after doing Bootshine. Also, it seems like a lot of jobs had a lot of potency boosts. Looking at DRG for example, True Thrust (lv1) went from 160 to 290 potency and Vorpal Thrust (lv2) went from a combo potency of 250 to 350. So I don't feel like monk is really getting a buff from this. And then everyone loses some abilities, buffs, oGCDs so it's kinda a toss-up unless you dig down into it

[ValStormbreaker]

It is removed after Bootshine, you're correct.

As for potency boosts, remember that they said in the live letter that the entire underlying math of the game is different now, so they warned not to freak out over the appearance of potency changes because the numbers have no frame of reference to pre-5.x potency numbers. The real reasons you're seeing people clear Alliance Raids so quickly is because more of the really good players who know their rotations are flooding back into the game trying to power-level in roulettes, so you're seeing what pre-5.x roulettes would be like if you had more players who knew their rotations, were doing their positionals properly, etc. At first I thought it was just potency buff stuff until I started noticing how on-top of things all my party members were, and how snappy they were to react to everything, including healers who were actually adjusting like total bosses. [insert "hell has finally frozen over" joke here] XD Best Labyrinth run ever btw, wish I could have commended all my party members for how awesome a job they did.

Unfortunately, the potency buffs can make MNK as strong as they want for 5.x content, but don't make up for all the things MNK lost. It doesn't quite feel fun to play anymore, and just feels clunky and clumsy. Of course, I'll reserve some judgment until I get to 80 but I'm getting the feeling that a lot of MNK mains will abandon the job for Dancer for this reason, and all the former ARR/HW MNK mains who have this fantasy of MNK being a faster sustained DPS like the pre-SB incarnation of the job will find they're not quite getting what they want, either. IMHO it really needs an extra oGCD that gives a stack of GL, and that would fix 95% of the issues right there. Could still use yet another oGCD on top of that so the rotation can feel more fun, smooth and rhythmic like it was before, but if I could only get one, I'd vote the one that grants a GL stack.

The most fun it is... I guess you can say it feels nicer to deal with trash mobs with the new AoE skills, but that doesn't make up for its performance issues with single-target combat. It's strong, sure, and that's all fine and said... but it's just not fun to use anymore, which is the problem. Half of it is they removed more than they replaced, so it feels clumsy to use. The other half of it is... well... it's just boring to play now. It doesn't feel as actively engaging as SB MNK.

We'll see how it does at level 80 but right now I'm not super optimistic, considering it's only one more single-target skill and a measly 5% speed increase from GL4.

[Physic]

It is removed after Bootshine, you're correct.

As for potency boosts, remember that they said in the live letter that the entire underlying math of the game is different now, so they warned not to freak out over the appearance of potency changes because the numbers have no frame of reference to pre-5.x potency numbers. The real reasons you're seeing people clear Alliance Raids so quickly is because more of the really good players who know their rotations are flooding back into the game trying to power-level in roulettes, so you're seeing what pre-5.x roulettes would be like if you had more players who knew their rotations, were doing their positionals properly, etc. At first I thought it was just potency buff stuff until I started noticing how on-top of things all my party members were, and how snappy they were to react to everything, including healers who were actually adjusting like total bosses. [insert "hell has finally frozen over" joke here] XD Best Labyrinth run ever btw, wish I could have commended all my party members for how awesome a job they did.

Unfortunately, the potency buffs can make MNK as strong as they want for 5.x content, but don't make up for all the things MNK lost. It doesn't quite feel fun to play anymore, and just feels clunky and clumsy. Of course, I'll reserve some judgment until I get to 80 but I'm getting the feeling that a lot of MNK mains will abandon the job for Dancer for this reason, and all the former ARR/HW MNK mains who have this fantasy of MNK being a faster sustained DPS like the pre-SB incarnation of the job will find they're not quite getting what they want, either. IMHO it really needs an extra oGCD that gives a stack of GL, and that would fix 95% of the issues right there. Could still use yet another oGCD on top of that so the rotation can feel more fun, smooth and rhythmic like it was before, but if I could only get one, I'd vote the one that grants a GL stack.

The most fun it is... I guess you can say it feels nicer to deal with trash mobs with the new AoE skills, but that doesn't make up for its performance issues with single-target combat. It's strong, sure, and that's all fine and said... but it's just not fun to use anymore, which is the problem. Half of it is they removed more than they replaced, so it feels clumsy to use. The other half of it is... well... it's just boring to play now. It doesn't feel as actively engaging as SB MNK.

We'll see how it does at level 80 but right now I'm not super optimistic, considering it's only one more single-target skill and a measly 5% speed increase from GL4.

it definitely feels off and not as entertaining at 70, maybe at 80 it will be fun again. But at the same time it has nothing super exciting that's new, so its just a question of whether it will get back to its former thrills

[ValStormbreaker]

it definitely feels off and not as entertaining at 70, maybe at 80 it will be fun again. But at the same time it has nothing super exciting that's new, so its just a question of whether it will get back to its former thrills

Yeah that's a big part of the problem. It's nice that Four Point Fury replaces One Ilm Punch, so the AoE rotation is much better. Other than that... the only thing we get for single-target weaponskills is Six-Sided Star, which can't even be unlocked until after the MSQ is done. Kind of makes going through the story on your main a pain in the rear, and I kind of feel that it defeats the purpose of maxing out your main if it's not fun to use. Since one of the new skills is just a replacement for something they took out and not an additional toy to play with, and the one truly new one is a line AoE you'd never use in single-target situations, it basically means

Even if they gave Perfect Balance a second charge, that wouldn't fix the issue. I really feel like MNK had too much taken away, resulting in it being slow. People kind of oversold the 4 GL stacks because it's just a measly 5% which isn't much. The result of removing the oGCDs is that it feels slower and more boring. It also makes using it to go back to Level 70 content (especially for those of us who didn't quite get to finish the Alphascape raids and still want to unlock UCoB and can't yet do those unsynced) practically unplayable with MNK because of how it is right now.

The perfect solution would be two new oGCD weaponskills, one of which gives a stack of GL and doesn't need to be powerful, and the other can be whatever. I know that there's a cost factor involved with the development of new animations and whatnot, so it's unlikely we'd get brand-new ones, BUT... if they could recycle old, deprecated skills that looked cool enough (because let's face it, Howling Fist and Steel Peak didn't exactly have the coolest animations to behold), and just tweak the tooltip, that's be fine enough for me. My personal votes are Somersault and Axe Kick, two skills from PvP which looked great, have icons and animations already made and tool tips that (with some obvious tweaking to their tooltip descriptions for a translation into PvE) would pretty much make SHB MNK perfect without changing anything. Also it never hurts to have more kick moves. :P

I do feel though that it is certainly two oGCDs too few for single-target purposes. SSS's situational usage doesn't make up for the loss of two other things, but maybe Somersault and Axe Kick would alleviate some of the strain on what made SB MNK fun to play.

Otherwise it feels like one step forward, two giant leaps back IMHO.

[Ramura_Sono]

Here's one for you, why was "To improve player usability, the time frame within which players must execute actions to continue or complete combos has been extended." not a change applied to monk?
Why were the timers on our forms not increased to 15 seconds to match the changes every other Job received?

[ValStormbreaker]

Here's one for you, why was "To improve player usability, the time frame within which players must execute actions to continue or complete combos has been extended." not a change applied to monk?
Why were the timers on our forms not increased to 15 seconds to match the changes every other Job received?

That's yet another good question, thanks for bringing that up! I have not yet tried out other jobs at 70 with these sorts of timers, but yeah without being able to get another GL stack right away, not having the timers increased is another punishing thing.

Personally, though, I wouldn't mind the GL timer staying as is if we just got those two oGCDs I previously mentioned. MNK is supposed to play fast, and in a game with a GCD longer than WoW's, that sense of speed is supposed to come from weaving oGCDs. Increase the potencies and timer durations all you want, it still won't make up for that. Even if they sped up the GCD by a substantial margin, then the issue is it's still more boring to play. So this is why I say, keep everything as-is, let the speed come from more oGCDs, make one of them give a stack of GL so we can get back into the fight if we're forced to drop our stacks or just have no up-time, and let us have free-flowing melee combat again.

I think lots of people are over-selling Anatman's usage as well. You can only use it while standing still and the GL stack gain is slower than if we just had weaponskills. Honestly I'd be content without it if we got other combat oGCDs instead. Sounds cool on paper, looks cool in game, but as for practical usage... ehhhhhhhhh... not really feeling it. There are alternative, better ways to maintain stacks without having to pause combat, even going into or coming out of a phase change.

I'd honestly be willing to totally give up Anatman if we could get Somersault and Axe Kick in its stead. They don't have to be strong potency-wise, and they can have 90 or 120-second cooldown timers for all I care... they just need to be there for the flow of the weaving, and at least one of them needs to give a stack of GL.

[ValStormbreaker]

Got my MNK to 80 and here are my thoughts.

People have oversold GL4. The speed increase is in hundredths of a second which is marginal. With AF4 gear, the Skill Speed is so low you need to get up to GL4 to have a GCD as fast as the end-game BiS gear for Stormblood, meaning you're not actually going faster, and you need to do an extra step to get to the same speed, meaning it takes longer to wind up. Combine this with the removal of damage-dealing oGCDs and that means you have less to do while going just as fast, making it feel slower to play. Potencies may have been changed to adjust for this damage-wise, but the result is that it's far more boring to play. It's still a problem if you have more than 2k SkS on your gear. The lack of oGCDs just makes it still feel like there's nothing to do in specific windows with forced slowdowns. This makes MNK boring to play and is not what players had in mind when GL4 was revealed. Their desire was to go FASTER, not to take longer to get to the same speed with less to do.

It feels like the job was largely tuned for dungeon encounters with a better AoE rotation, but single-target gameplay suffers. Anatman is a worthless skill. It only maxes your GL duration if you go up a stack of GL, which can only happen while you're already in combat, meaning you'd either have to lose DPS up-time to use it or save it for a phase change. There is not a single phase change in the game outside of o10s that is so long that Six-Sided Star and/or Riddle of Earth couldn't just be used instead for these purposes. O10s having an obnoxiously long phase change which doesn't deal damage quickly enough for you to use RoE is an encounter design issue and a rare one at that, not something MNK needs a tool to deal with. It doesn't generate GL stacks or maxes your duration when you're not in combat, and requires at least one GL stack to do anything, so it can't be used for pre-pulling. If you're already at GL4 it won't max your duration, so if you use it for a phase change and you have only a few seconds left on your GL timer, it just freezes the timer.

I'd much rather have abilities which allow me to regain a GL stack while maintaining DPS uptime than being forced to use this. It feels only useful for pausing at a dummy, but otherwise impractical and there are other, better skills which do the same things for GL stacks and don't take you out of the fight, which makes it redundant and not as helpful/useful.

I'll post my proposed solutions right after this because of the character limitations per pose :P