Reasoning for removal of TP, but not MP?

[Warkupo]

Nothing really changes by taking away TP from melee, while taking away MP requires broad changes to enough classes that it would be far messier to implement. What do you do to limit the healer that just spams their most powerful cure over and over again? What about the Paladin who is now free to spam clemency or holy spirit? The blackmage who can now entirely ignore two of their three elements? Sure it wouldn't make a big impact for summoner or redmage, but there's enough classes where it does that I imagine the workload to overhaul those classes further wasn't worth the effort.

The only time TP came up in the entire game was if your AOE damage wasn't good enough to kill the adds you had pulled. It served no real gameplay purpose outside of that so it didn't make sense to keep it as a barrier.

[Clicked]

MP for healers is how they're balanced. You are supposed to weigh the cost of AOE vs the MP you'll need to heal your group and your MP management cooldowns. Healers are the only role that can use Piety, a MP management stat. It's their whole gimmick.

MP for caster DPS is a limitation on raises OR core to their rotation (BLM). Not to mention that other casters have at least a tiny bit of decision making during the AOE rotation, where as MP neutral/free Holy Spam would not.

[Melichoir]

Don't just say something without providing evidence of some sort.

TP got removed, which results in any TP class being able to spam their AoE spells all the time, which wasn't possible before.
Using that as a base it makes no sense why any AoE spell on a MP class still cost resources, right?

If the scope was to enable AoE spamming you would grant it both groups, TP and MP classes, and not just TP classes.

It wouldnt make sense to remove MP because MP is a resource that actually gets used up in battle. TP wasnt with the exception of AoEs. Which was a very weird dynamic.
As I literally said above, how it functioned prior to ShB is the only classes that had trouble with resources was TP based classes when it came to AoE, where ranged TP users faired better than melee. DPS Casters did not have this problem broadly, EXCEPT if the aoe went on to long. Outside of AoE situations, TP was a moot resource, where MP has always had a dynamic use in some capacity.

Theyre just streamlining a system that didnt really utilize TP.

Look at it this way: If they streamlined TP to be on par with Mana when it came to AoE, then TP becomes a useless resource because you likely woudlnt run out of TP in AoE pulls, and you didnt run out TP in regular rotations. It would kinda just be..there.

This all being said, you can run out of mana on AoE Pulls, sure, but its not nearly detrimental. For starters, BLM pretty much doesnt have this problem. SMN appears to have quite a few spells that are AoE but dont consume resources, and its dedicated spam one is only 400 mana. Meaning you can punch that 25 times (or for a minute almost) before depleting. RDM is similar in this function. WHM still has their HOLY, which eats 600 Mana a cast, but it also has a stun attached to it along with slightly higher damage. You can spam that 15 (30 seconds) or so times before depletion. AST still has its AoE and Stellar Explosion, though its not as mana efficient as WHM in this regards. SCH is the only class that looks like its getting shafted on AoE, with only 1 aoe spell that conumes 800 mana per cast. Granted though, its always been the case with Healers that they were supposed to be balancing their damage vs healing output and managing mana around it.

The whole "They didnt want AoE" spam issue pretty much falls apart however when you see that casters didnt have a resource management issue typically, unlike the TP users. All the changes pretty much do is say "Ok, aoe spam to your hearts content. Youre gonna do it anwyays, so might as well not Gimp TP users." There's no reason to change the MP use on Casters cause for AoE its a moot issue. And unless you want melee to have TP specifically for AoE, it was gonna get axed and the solution was just make skills free cost.

Also, btw, you could justify caster mana costs simply because they sit at ranged and are less prone to risks like cleave or close aoe which are fairly common.

[Millybonk]

Most of the caster classes already could spam AoE abilities just fine. Spamming of AoE abilities is not the issue.
It is mainly healing that is limited by MP. For anything else running out of MP/TP is/was almost never an issue.

Do you actually believe that?

A test for you then:
- You as healer, a tank and 2 other TP classes at a level, when you as healer have access to a spammable AoE spell, e.g. lvl 45 as WHM to get Holy
- Tell the tank to go at an aggressive pace, but slow enough for you to have plenty of time to dps
- Cast your healer AoE-spam ability as much as possible in an attempt to keep up with the now permanent AoE-spamming of TP classes without letting anyone die
- Come back to me how long you were able to keep the AoE spamming up without neglecting healing due to AoE abilities for MP classes still costing resources

[Millybonk]

MP for healers is how they're balanced. You are supposed to weigh the cost of AOE vs the MP you'll need to heal your group and your MP management cooldowns. Healers are the only role that can use Piety, a MP management stat. It's their whole gimmick.

MP for caster DPS is a limitation on raises OR core to their rotation (BLM). Not to mention that other casters have at least a tiny bit of decision making during the AOE rotation, where as MP neutral/free Holy Spam would not.

The same could be said previously for TP in weighting TP for AoE vs. single-target, but albeit at a lower impact/difficulty compared to the normal healer/dps hybrid.

How about this: MP classes with only CDs like TP classes, and only raises + heals costing a hefty amount of MP?
You'd combat the obvious raise/constant spam healing issues while still providing MP classes the same benefit TP classes now got.

Indeed, MP costs of AoE spells do add a tiny difficulty, but look at it like this: TP classes are now allowed to "Brain off, AoE all you want" whereas MP classes still have to think a little about their resources.
Why can't my WHM get the same "Brain off, AoE all you want" benefit?

[Xtrasweettea]

The only real issue I see with the changes is that TP is infinite, but MP took a nerf with the loss of Refresh. MP Sustain with multiple deaths will be a serious issue.

What loss of Refresh? You mean those abilities that most PUG Range DPS rarely use? Or are you talking about Mana Shift... another ability most PUG Mage DPS rarely use? It is hard to miss something that most people rarely have seen.

MP Sustain should be a serious issue if there are multiple deaths. If there are multiple deaths, there are issues going on that need to be addressed. If multiple deaths are happening because of stupid actions (like DPS standing in deadly AOE or tanks spinning the cleaving boss), those issue need to be taken care of. The "I'll just raise this DPS and we'll zombie through this" isn't going to work anymore.

TP is infinite because SE decided to make the real resource limiter Healer's MP for this expansion. TP users didn't get a buff, instead they had their resource limitation outsourced to healers. If anything, the Infinite TP is a nerf.

Yes, TP Users can spam all the AOE they want, but if Healer McCureIISpam drains the bank, it doesn't matter if you can DPS for free. That Healer just ate up the group's resources.

It doesn't matter if the Healer is great with MP management, Tanks deciding to show everyone that the boss can cleave isn't going to help.

It also doesn't matter if the Healer and the Tank do good, if DPS don't actually DPS, the Healer will run out of resources at some point.

Everyone is actually going to have to stop watching the Netflix and actually put some attention into group content... even casual content.

[SamSmoot]

Basically, unless you spammed your AOE skills there were never any risk of running out of TP, so it was in essence a pointless resource.

I always wondered what TP was for, I don't think I've ever seen it drop on this character, even while AIE farming low level mobs. (Death Blossom works for this because you don't have to target them first, just run by and hit one key.)

[IntrovertAnt]

As a PLD in SB, during elongated fights with alot of enemies, it was very common for me to run out of BOTH mp (overuse of flash if all of your dps are hitting different targets) AND TP (total eclipse spam). Not really complaining, since it still did the job, but it always felt really bad to use PLD aoe abilities.

[TankHunter678]

Removing MP would require a drastic rework of the entire game. As removing it would break every healer class and all the mages. All healing and reviving would have to be changed to be cooldown based as there would be no detriments to heal spamming or people dying in any fight without a enrage mechanic otherwise. You would have SCH and AST players just spamming shields to null damage if they did not have to care about mana at all.

TP was only ever a concern in 1 situation: AoE pulls. Outside of then it regenerated faster then it could be consumed unless you were playing a class that could achieve ludicrous skill speeds to actually outpace the regen.

Hence why it was not an issue to remove TP. TP itself was nearly as useless as the non royal road Spire card was. Both were only ever a concern/use in 1 situation that was only ever in normal dungeons.

[MistakeNot]

Do you actually believe that?

A test for you then:
- You as healer, a tank and 2 other TP classes at a level, when you as healer have access to a spammable AoE spell, e.g. lvl 45 as WHM to get Holy
- Tell the tank to go at an aggressive pace, but slow enough for you to have plenty of time to dps
- Cast your healer AoE-spam ability as much as possible in an attempt to keep up with the now permanent AoE-spamming of TP classes without letting anyone die
- Come back to me how long you were able to keep the AoE spamming up without neglecting healing due to AoE abilities for MP classes still costing resources

Yes, I believe it. Of course, that is based on experience from actual dungeon runs rather than contrived tests that do not match how people actually play.

Your proposed test is pointless because it misses one very fundamental point: The main role of healer isn't to do damage, but to heal. Damage is what they do when and if they have time and resources left to do so. Or in other words - healers aren't supposed to spam AoE attacks all the time because that isn't their job, while it is perfectly reasonable to for DPS classes to do so - attacking is their main responsibility.