[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Anathiel]

I think there should be some limits to how much customization gets done at the title level. If you start creating too many paths/specialization within titles, the game starts to lose class/role definition again. Like, to take WOW's system for applying talent points, instead of having three full branches/specializations to choose from, they could compress them all together into one "chart". They could have certain abilities dependent on others like in that system. You might be able to specialize in being a "blood tank", but it should be in a more subtle way I think, like maybe there would be abilities in there that boost your drain or increase your magic defense and you could take those over stuff that boosted your magic potency or stuff that increased your ATK, but lowered your def.

I think they should always let you be able to use abilities that you learned from other weapon classes and not mix abilities between titles. I think it get's really messy if you switch it around and have classes not mix, but titles mix like I think Anathiel was suggesting, because remember the weapon class spells/abilities are supposed to be the "generic" stuff while the title is suppose to give you the "specific" stuff. If you have WHM/CON not able to draw on abilities from THM or other classes, then you're really limited that combination because CON by itself isn't giving you as much generic spells that can be used for healing because it's balanced with stuff for buffing/debuffing and nuking. The whole idea of the title is to have something to map those generic abilities that you learn from your weapon class onto something with more definition like a job.

You might not like the idea of having a DRK being able to use CURE, but with the whole compounded penalties/affinity system a DRK/GLA that wants to focus on tanking, is only going to be able to use a nerfed version of that spell because CURE won't favor DRK or GLA, this encourages a DRK/GLA to use other means of healing, namely his drain spells, and reducing enemy ATK with stuff like BIO and absorb skills.

The bottom part of the quote was exactly the example I gave earlier about how drk could tank, especially if one of the title bonuses you could choose was enhanced absorbs, or drains.

[OmegaNovaios]

This may help... http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-wars-2-Videos

scroll and you will see it later in the thread. About a bit after halfway down.

Another reason GW2 have my attention.

GW2 definitely looks different but I don't think they are getting rid of the "triad" exactly.

Now there are thief game play videos. Obviously thief looks like a DPS who has tanking elements (dodging). The Guardian class seems to me like it's name serves a purpose and probably would be the tank class. All classes seem to have DPS aspects (everything should for solo play) and I also noticed some CC (crowd control) tactics involved. Now if the game has HP involved then there is or isn't curing. If there isn't curing then I see the game losing a lot of options for people to play. If there is curing then this completes the triad right?

While this game is definitely executed far differently that what I have seen before and does look very interesting I don't see an MMO getting rid of the tank,heal,DPS, or CC roles unless to combine them all equally in every class, which people are going to be drawn into some roles more than others and thus specialize in those unless they are jack-of-all-trades type players (which is personally my favorite route) and you can't make jack-of-all-trades an ace-of-all-trades at the same time (an ace-in-1-trade while jack in the rest works).

FFXI got rid of the triad system long ago.

Tank, Healer, DD, Crowd Control/Enmity Control, Buffer, Puller were all dedicated party roles, some were shared by hybrid classes but they had lots of different uses.

Implementing the Job System would allow those things to return.

I also don't think FFXI got rid of the triad system, but it got rid of the traditional triad system. What I mean by this is 1 class isn't specifically for 1 role. It may have been designed that way, but when you add sub jobs into the equation that changes everything.

Which is why I would like to see something similar implemented into FFXIV.

Sorry if I'm wrong about my statements over "triad system" but I just assume "triad system" is referring to core elements whether crowd control or buffing is in the equation. I view crowd control as a way for magic/tactics to tank over taking the hits directly and buffing as the healing role but with tactics involved.

[northernsky]

GW2 definitely looks different but I don't think they are getting rid of the "triad" exactly.

Now there are thief game play videos. Obviously thief looks like a DPS who has tanking elements (dodging). The Guardian class seems to me like it's name serves a purpose and probably would be the tank class. All classes seem to have DPS aspects (everything should for solo play) and I also noticed some CC (crowd control) tactics involved. Now if the game has HP involved then there is or isn't curing. If there isn't curing then I see the game losing a lot of options for people to play. If there is curing then this completes the triad right?

While this game is definitely executed far differently that what I have seen before and does look very interesting I don't see an MMO getting rid of the tank,heal,DPS, or CC roles unless to combine them all equally in every class, which people are going to be drawn into some roles more than others and thus specialize in those unless they are jack-of-all-trades type players (which is personally my favorite route) and you can't make jack-of-all-trades an ace-of-all-trades at the same time (an ace-in-1-trade while jack in the rest works).



I also don't think FFXI got rid of the triad system, but it got rid of the traditional triad system. What I mean by this is 1 class isn't specifically for 1 role. It may have been designed that way, but when you add sub jobs into the equation that changes everything.

Which is why I would like to see something similar implemented into FFXIV.

Sorry if I'm wrong about my statements over "triad system" but I just assume "triad system" is referring to core elements whether crowd control or buffing is in the equation. I view crowd control as a way for magic/tactics to tank over taking the hits directly and buffing as the healing role but with tactics involved.

I'm starting to think that those apparently deficient enmity algorithms were maybe not just a mistake. The current system promotes self healing and buffing, and damage dealing regardless of your class, so maybe they were aiming at changing the way parties worked compared to more traditional ways.

At the moment you can easily team up with 3-4 other DD and attack quite decent mobs with the hate bouncing on one or another member without a dedicated tank or healer as along as the fight doesn't last too long. There are several healing abilities and HP regens quickly in passive mode.

[Cairdeas]

I also don't think FFXI got rid of the triad system, but it got rid of the traditional triad system. What I mean by this is 1 class isn't specifically for 1 role. It may have been designed that way, but when you add sub jobs into the equation that changes everything.

Most Jobs in XI could perform multiple roles even without subjobs, Subjobs just helped define them a bit more. Thief could CC/Pull and Spike DD. BLM could DD, CC, and Support. etc.

I view crowd control as a way for magic/tactics to tank over taking the hits directly and buffing as the healing role but with tactics involved.

in XI Crowd Control also included Enmity Control which was what things like SATA were. A character who is not the tank taking the hate from someone who is not the tank and giving it all to the Tank. Thief and Dragoon were the masters of this undoubtedly and that was without sub jobs.

[OmegaNovaios]

in XI Crowd Control also included Enmity Control which was what things like SATA were. A character who is not the tank taking the hate from someone who is not the tank and giving it all to the Tank. Thief and Dragoon were the masters of this undoubtedly and that was without sub jobs.

True, but it still revolves around tanking. However sometimes crowd control is extremely valuable like Sleeping mobs in Dynamis.

Also, I wasn't aware that Dragoon had CC actions in FFXI w/o a sub job.

[Cairdeas]

True, but it still revolves around tanking. However sometimes crowd control is extremely valuable like Sleeping mobs in Dynamis.

Also, I wasn't aware that Dragoon had CC actions in FFXI w/o a sub job.

High Jump and Super Jump both were Enmity Modifiers. High Jump would return any enmity you took from someone and gave it back (IE, If your tank had enmity, and then you used Sneak Attack + Pentathrust) you would take hate some times, Using High Jump you gave a portion of it back enough to usually send the monster back to its original target.

Super jump did the same thing but on a larger scale. And with your 2hr active superjump let you steal the enmity off another party member as well.

Thats all EC though which is part of CC.

[Carpe]

I think you misunderstood what I ment by not having classes mix only titles. What I was trying to say was that you could bind skills to the title that were learnt from the class, so no matter what class you have equipped with that title you have that ability. The only limitation would be that only certain skills would be able to bind to the title. For instance drk could sub conj and have cure but you couldn't bind cure to drk and then equip thau and still have cure. But you could bind fire, blizzard, and thunder and use it with thau equipped, after unlocking them of course. It gives you a reason to level multiple jobs while giving your title the classic abilities inherent to that title. You could use the conj abilities you unlocked for either drk or blm, but with varying degrees of efficency.

Edit: to expand, if you were a gladiator you would not be able to equip cure from conj, I hope that makes more sense now ^^

I guess I was confused by what you meant by "binding" an ability to a title. This system already let's a DRK/GLA use CURE (as long as you unlocked it already) without the DRK having to equip /CON. It let's you swap abilities between weapon classes (subs) regardless of what title/class combination you are using.

Did you mean that you wouldn't want a DRK/GLA to be able to use cure without being a DRK/CON (I guess the reasoning would be that a DRK shouldn't share abilities between weapon classes that weren't characteristic for DRK, unless it dedicated itself to equiping the weapon that that ability came from).

You wouldn't have to "bind" them in that case all you would have to do is add the rule that a Title/Sub combo (ex. DRK/GLA) couldn't use abilities from another /Sub (anything other than /GLA) if it didn't favor that title (Cure doesn't favor DRK and is /CON not /GLA so that wouldn't be in the pool of abilities it could use from other classes, but Bio favors DRK so eventhough it isn't /GLA it could be used by DRK/GLA).

That would be more restrictive than the more open swapping this system allows. Here you can use Cure with a DRK/GLA it just isn't as strong as it would be for a WHM/CON or even a DRK/CON.

[Cogs]

I rather like this idea by the op.

[Anathiel]

I guess I was confused by what you meant by "binding" an ability to a title. This system already let's a DRK/GLA use CURE (as long as you unlocked it already) without the DRK having to equip /CON. It let's you swap abilities between weapon classes (subs) regardless of what title/class combination you are using.

Did you mean that you wouldn't want a DRK/GLA to be able to use cure without being a DRK/CON (I guess the reasoning would be that a DRK shouldn't share abilities between weapon classes that weren't characteristic for DRK, unless it dedicated itself to equiping the weapon that that ability came from).

You wouldn't have to "bind" them in that case all you would have to do is add the rule that a Title/Sub combo (ex. DRK/GLA) couldn't use abilities from another /Sub (anything other than /GLA) if it didn't favor that title (Cure doesn't favor DRK and is /CON not /GLA so that wouldn't be in the pool of abilities it could use from other classes, but Bio favors DRK so eventhough it isn't /GLA it could be used by DRK/GLA).

That would be more restrictive than the more open swapping this system allows. Here you can use Cure with a DRK/GLA it just isn't as strong as it would be for a WHM/CON or even a DRK/CON.

I guess you're right, besides...if the fact it would be rather uneffective is enough of a deterrant that most people wouldn't try it and if they did, they would probably get some frowns if they tried useless combo's. I guess I was making it more restrective than it needed to be

[Carpe]

BTW I watched some of the vids for GW2 and read THIS

I definitely like the idea of getting rid of dedicated healers and forcing people to be more self-aware, not necessarily self-reliant. This could really lead to some dynamic combat, but only if they make the combat difficult, which makes me wonder how well they'll be able to find a balance between hardcore/casual players. But it's definitely something that I'd tryout, even though I think FFXIV will probably ultimately be a more fulfilling RPG experience.

However, even though they seem to be getting rid of dedicated healers, that doesn't mean they are necessarily getting rid of roles they are just working it around to be a more abstracted sense of damage/support/control. I'm guessing the different classes, while all being hybrids in the sense that they are all capable of acting out these roles to some degree, would probably be better suited to some part of the spectrum than completely equally balanced in all three. I think I'd have to play it to see.

Also, the armory system (even without titles) isn't set up to be like this. GW2 is designed to not have dedicated healers, you can't be a dedicated healer because it doesn't have any. The armory system let's you make a dedicated healer if you want to. So i don't think it's forcing people to be self-reliant its just giving you options on how you want to customize your character, which ultimately leads to different types of playstyles and party compositions and tactics. I don't think GW2 is giving you more choices as much as it's just making the dynamics of combat different from most traditional MMOs.