[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Carpe]

I think there should be some limits to how much customization gets done at the title level. If you start creating too many paths/specialization within titles, the game starts to lose class/role definition again. Like, to take WOW's system for applying talent points, instead of having three full branches/specializations to choose from, they could compress them all together into one "chart". They could have certain abilities dependent on others like in that system. You might be able to specialize in being a "blood tank", but it should be in a more subtle way I think, like maybe there would be abilities in there that boost your drain or increase your magic defense and you could take those over stuff that boosted your magic potency or stuff that increased your ATK, but lowered your def.

I think they should always let you be able to use abilities that you learned from other weapon classes and not mix abilities between titles. I think it get's really messy if you switch it around and have classes not mix, but titles mix like I think Anathiel was suggesting, because remember the weapon class spells/abilities are supposed to be the "generic" stuff while the title is suppose to give you the "specific" stuff. If you have WHM/CON not able to draw on abilities from THM or other classes, then you're really limited that combination because CON by itself isn't giving you as much generic spells that can be used for healing because it's balanced with stuff for buffing/debuffing and nuking. The whole idea of the title is to have something to map those generic abilities that you learn from your weapon class onto something with more definition like a job.

You might not like the idea of having a DRK being able to use CURE, but with the whole compounded penalties/affinity system a DRK/GLA that wants to focus on tanking, is only going to be able to use a nerfed version of that spell because CURE won't favor DRK or GLA, this encourages a DRK/GLA to use other means of healing, namely his drain spells, and reducing enemy ATK with stuff like BIO and absorb skills.

[northernsky]

I think there should be some limits to how much customization gets done at the title level. If you start creating too many paths/specialization within titles, the game starts to lose class/role definition again. Like, to take WOW's system for applying talent points, instead of having three full branches/specializations to choose from, they could compress them all together into one "chart". They could have certain abilities dependent on others like in that system. You might be able to specialize in being a "blood tank", but it should be in a more subtle way I think, like maybe there would be abilities in there that boost your drain or increase your magic defense and you could take those over stuff that boosted your magic potency or stuff that increased your ATK, but lowered your def.

I think they should always let you be able to use abilities that you learned from other weapon classes and not mix abilities between titles. I think it get's really messy if you switch it around and have classes not mix, but titles mix like I think Anathiel was suggesting, because remember the weapon class spells/abilities are supposed to be the "generic" stuff while the title is suppose to give you the "specific" stuff. If you have WHM/CON not able to draw on abilities from THM or other classes, then you're really limited that combination because CON by itself isn't giving you as much generic spells that can be used for healing because it's balanced with stuff for buffing/debuffing and nuking. The whole idea of the title is to have something to map those generic abilities that you learn from your weapon class onto something with more definition like a job.

You might not like the idea of having a DRK being able to use CURE, but with the whole compounded penalties/affinity system a DRK/GLA that wants to focus on tanking, is only going to be able to use a nerfed version of that spell because CURE won't favor DRK or GLA, this encourages a DRK/GLA to use other means of healing, namely his drain spells, and reducing enemy ATK with stuff like BIO and absorb skills.

Agreed.

The only part of your idea that I disagree with is the principle of penalty. I would prefer lowering the overall strength of the current abilities/spells and to give bonuses to the titles that need these spells. The result would be the same, but the perception from the player would be different.

Example: I don't have a further penalty for equipping cure if I'm playing a DRG/LNC. I already have a penalty to cure potency if I'm not a CON as base class. But compared to a WHM with several healing potency and mind bonuses, my healing skills are poor but may still be useful in certain situations like soloing.

[Carpe]

Yah that's kinda like when a department store lowers their inflated prices and says "blowout sale".

Or when you get fatigued, but you are "awarded" "bonus" experience. LOL.

[northernsky]

Yah that's kinda like when a department store lowers their inflated prices and says "blowout sale".

Or when you get fatigued, but you are "awarded" "bonus" experience. LOL.

lol exactly. I would also be in favor of a rested bonus exp and temporary boost to your weapons instead of fatigue and repairs

[Mr_Gyactus]

I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

I don't see how a system with subclasses can enhance a party.
This is true only if we think the only possibile way to play this game is the common triad. It's not.
It’s used in FF11, it’s used in a lot of MMO games, but it's not the only possible choice.
Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”.
We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.
Remember, if you use this type of gameplay, every encounter (=boss) will need a tank, a dps and an healer. I don’t find this gameplay intriguing, even if I have played this sort of game for years.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

Simply I see the system binding. I’m not saying I dislike new classes, I’m saying we must not give holds to discriminate players (if not our personal experience/knowledge).

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

Yes, I agree with this, the problem is the content. SE can create content thinking about classic roles, or about what the game actually has. I wanna see a game where I can play with 3 random players and be able to complete an objective and kill a boss (if we are good enough, of course); the success depends from our ability, not from a class. choose the best player for that encounter, not the best job.
I don't think DD/TANK/healer will come out as you think. This is true only if SE decides to add content where we need a tank, a dps and an healer.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

No, the problem seems be a lack of emphasis on stats, and SE has already stated they’ll improve this with equip and char base stats; so, before we talk about classes, it’s important to see how stats will change the gameplay.
I don’t see more options, more options in FF14 means more skills, usable in every character and in every combination. With the OP example, if SE adds a dark knight class and I can use DK skills with a pugilist or a gladiator, SE is adding options.
This does not mean the OP idea is bad, but before I can say “it’s good” I wanna understand how SE think to develop contents and gameplay.

[northernsky]

I don't see how a system with subclasses can enhance a party.
This is true only if we think the only possibile way to play this game is the common triad. It's not.
It’s used in FF11, it’s used in a lot of MMO games, but it's not the only possible choice.
Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”.
We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.
Remember, if you use this type of gameplay, every encounter (=boss) will need a tank, a dps and an healer. I don’t find this gameplay intriguing, even if I have played this sort of game for years.

Very interesting. I have not played many other MMORPGs, can you give some examples?

edit: nevermind I was just confused by the english formulation

Actually the parties in which I had the most fun in XI and XIV were not triad parties. I think the game already provides that flexibility, i-e I change the abilities on my bar depending on if I pt or not, or depending on the people playing with me. There is a fair amount of heals and buffs that even melee can use efficiently.

What I fail to see is why you think a character progression system like the OP describes would favor the triad over a more flexible system. The way I see it, it is purely a bonus that you get, which you could decide to use to improve different facets of your playing style.

[Carpe]

Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”. We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.

I don't think DD/TANK/healer will come out as you think. This is true only if SE decides to add content where we need a tank, a dps and an healer.

I'm also interested in learning more about these games that are getting rid of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps". I guess I don't see how these kind of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps" are avoidable. Just having an ability like "provoke" in the game suggests a tank role to some extent because why would you "provoke" if you weren't in some way capable of dealing with the attack better than those you are preventing the monster from hitting.

Only certain builds in this system would be like a very optimized "tank", "healer", "dps", you can have more hybrid builds that don't fall at the extremes of the tank/healer/dps spectrum.

If nobody had any definition whatsoever I think there would just be really confusing/inefficient combat. Everybody trying to heal someone that got damaged, so they get overhealed. Everybody pulling aggro off each other playing "pickle" with the mob. Maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way, lol.

[Akumu]

I'm also interested in learning more about these games that are getting rid of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps". I guess I don't see how these kind of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps" are avoidable. Just having an ability like "provoke" in the game suggests a tank role to some extent because why would you "provoke" if you weren't in some way capable of dealing with the attack better than those you are preventing the monster from hitting.

Only certain builds in this system would be like a very optimized "tank", "healer", "dps", you can have more hybrid builds that don't fall at the extremes of the tank/healer/dps spectrum.

If nobody had any definition whatsoever I think there would just be really confusing/inefficient combat. Everybody trying to heal someone that got damaged, so they get overhealed. Everybody pulling aggro off each other playing "pickle" with the mob. Maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way, lol.

This may help... http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-wars-2-Videos

scroll and you will see it later in the thread. About a bit after halfway down.

Another reason GW2 have my attention.

[Cairdeas]

This may help... http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-wars-2-Videos

scroll and you will see it later in the thread. About a bit after halfway down.

Another reason GW2 have my attention.

FFXI got rid of the triad system long ago.

Tank, Healer, DD, Crowd Control/Enmity Control, Buffer, Puller were all dedicated party roles, some were shared by hybrid classes but they had lots of different uses.

Implementing the Job System would allow those things to return.

[Anathiel]

I think you misunderstood what I ment by not having classes mix only titles. What I was trying to say was that you could bind skills to the title that were learnt from the class, so no matter what class you have equipped with that title you have that ability. The only limitation would be that only certain skills would be able to bind to the title. For instance drk could sub conj and have cure but you couldn't bind cure to drk and then equip thau and still have cure. But you could bind fire, blizzard, and thunder and use it with thau equipped, after unlocking them of course. It gives you a reason to level multiple jobs while giving your title the classic abilities inherent to that title. You could use the conj abilities you unlocked for either drk or blm, but with varying degrees of efficency.

Edit: to expand, if you were a gladiator you would not be able to equip cure from conj, I hope that makes more sense now ^^