Going to the same route as WoW. The game is TOO easy

[Ronduwil]

There was so much that I liked about your post, but then you wrote this. If we follow your logic, then any remotely challenging activity in an MMO would feel like a "second job." MMOs should be accessible—particularly in the leveling process—but if end game was catered to "take anyone, regardless of skill," then that is a very shallow game that would not maintain its player base.

That's not what I said. If a game is designed properly, it can provide a challenge without having to rely on enrage mechanics and arbitrary timers. WoW was at the height of its popularity during WotLK, which happens to have hit that sweet spot where you could take anyone regardless of skill. Granted, you might have been prevented from successfully doing some of the hard modes, but those were completely optional.

On a personal level, I will not go back to WoW, but M+ is quite frankly the best MMO system that we've seen in a very, very long time. It's casual friendly and accessible. The only people who truly have problems with M+ are the horrendously awful players—and I mean the kind of players who don't read skill descriptions, do whatever they want, and play for the lols. The way M+ is designed—both in Legion and BFA—is the capped gear rewards (so completing a +10 or +15) is easily achievable by anyone who has a functioning brain. You may wipe some and have some groups disband because some really awful players snuck into your group, but it's so easy to join groups and the skill requirement is quite modest, making it the furthest thing from a "second job." Any of WoW's recent expansions is a really bad example to use for "second job." As outside the initial leveling process, players who clear the hardest content in the game can easily do so with an under <10 per week schedule. It really doesn't hold up.

If Mythic+ is "the best MMO system that we've seen in a very, very long time," then why aren't you playing WoW right now? Personally, I didn't even attempt it because I was late to the game, and I didn't want to deal with the stress of preventing someone from making their weekly quota (literally a quota) while I was trying to learn.

As for "second job," I was recalling my Cataclysm/MoP experiences. I have not attempted high end raiding since MoP because of the frustration of watching three guilds fall apart, fending off recruiters, and the guilt of costing my guild their weekly raid every time I chose to support my kids' extra-curricular activities. I know I made the right choice, but I still felt guilty doing it, and I don't play games to feel guilty.

[Eli85]

That's not what I said. If a game is designed properly, it can provide a challenge without having to rely on enrage mechanics and arbitrary timers. WoW was at the height of its popularity during WotLK, which happens to have hit that sweet spot where you could take anyone regardless of skill. Granted, you might have been prevented from successfully doing some of the hard modes, but those were completely optional.

Eh, there's a lot where your argument falls apart. Enrage mechanics and timers are integral in this—and quite frankly any—genre for challenge. The difficulty of MMOs is executing the mechanics correctly and dealing out high DPS to defeat bosses. If you take away enrage mechanics and timers, you just need to not have your entire raid die to one-shot mechanics. Without enrage mechanics and timers, one tank and one healer can literally solo bosses. That's not hard. Secondly, outside of the 25-player hard mode, WotLK was a complete joke. You could take almost anyone you want because the game never challenged you in any substantive way. Do we all not remember, barring a few minor exceptions, that 10-player hard modes were pushovers? Citing WotLK does not make your argument in this, friend.

If Mythic+ is "the best MMO system that we've seen in a very, very long time," then why aren't you playing WoW right now? Personally, I didn't even attempt it because I was late to the game, and I didn't want to deal with the stress of preventing someone from making their weekly quota (literally a quota) while I was trying to learn.

Oh, I love this argument. Another MMO has a great system, and if I think it's great, I must want to play it because that's all that matters! Please. No one stays subscribed to any MMO because of one singular system. But to answer the question: I'm not playing WoW right now because there is more bad than good (and FF XIV is more good than bad). That doesn't mean that M+ is "bad." You really should have tried it. Assuming you don't get power leveled, anyone with a functioning brain can succeed at M+.

As for "second job," I was recalling my Cataclysm/MoP experiences. I have not attempted high end raiding since MoP because of the frustration of watching three guilds fall apart, fending off recruiters, and the guilt of costing my guild their weekly raid every time I chose to support my kids' extra-curricular activities. I know I made the right choice, but I still felt guilty doing it, and I don't play games to feel guilty.

All of that is self-inflicted. Sure, the schedule didn't work for you anymore, and that's fine, but in both WoW and FF XIV, almost everything but the hardest of the hard is puggable, easily, assuming you have a functioning brain.

People really need to understand that MMOs are not that hard, unless you're doing the end bosses of Mythic and ultimate raids.