Wedging healers into a pure healing role may have some advantages.

[Ilenya]

Not everyone can be convinced by the huge stretch and extrapolation required to turn the knowledge we have about a Lv.73 MSQ trial into something that covers absolutly everything else.
That may be enough to you, but it's not hard to understand why some people would doubt such claims and would prefer waiting literally a few days to be absolutly sure about it before making some feedback that -regardless of who is right- won't even be taken into account by SE if made before the release of said content anyway.

Holding that goalpost of yours so tight won't convince people who must see things with their own eyes before making a judgement. You simply cannot change how they value "proofs". To them, your goalpost is completly irrelevant. So, there's no reason to try so hard to keep it there. Just let them wait if they want to wait. It shouldn't matter to you if you are confident enough in what you believe to be true.

I'm allowed to snark.

To save posts...

You are repeating the same thing in almost every post of yours. That's way too dedicated to simply be snarking.
And if that was just snarking, then you literally gave a reason for everyone to ignore you.

Do you really think I only post about people moving the goalposts? Or are you cherrypicking comments?

[Fyce]

I'm allowed to snark.

You are repeating the same thing in almost every post of yours. That's way too dedicated to simply be snarking.
And if that was just snarking, then you literally gave a reason for everyone to ignore you.

Edit: As you wish.

Do you really think I only post about people moving the goalposts? Or are you cherrypicking comments?

Well, you've been pretty active on the matter lately. So I commented on that, yes. As far as I know, I'm allowed to comment on something specific you said. I don't really care how you call it. Granted I was hyperbolic when I said "almost every post of yours", but you can't really deny how insistant you've been on the subject:

At that point, could we stop using this stupid excuse that people can't use information to make feedback on things they do understand? Because I bet, if there's more issues with 6.0, this exact same excuse will come up again and again and again...

Wow, that goalpost sure moved fast.

Why are we moving the goalposts? We have actual gameplay for the changes, and people are saying to ignore that. People will eventually say "Ignore Extremes, Savage is what matters." And so on and so forth without any sense of self-awareness.

4.0 Lilies were not good by any stretch, and we could tell before the game even went out.

Remember, according to some we should ignore that because it's not level 80 Extreme fights. Which, naturally, will shift to "It's not Savage!"

Were you here for Stormblood's launch? Because this excuse is rather tired. We have tooltips, we have ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE for some people, but that's just not enough. Except we figured out issues for Stormblood with less information (Did we have something like the Titania fight back before Stormblood even?) and yet healers as a whole were absolutely right on numerous issues. Healers as a whole are not people guessing about things. We are capable of actually thinking about changes and making informed opinions based on what we have.

Nah. After then it'll be "Savage isn't out yet, wait until that!"

A lot of these definitly aren't just "snarky".

Anyway, it's interesting that you'd rather focus on my hyperbole than on the underlying and obviously more important point I was making.
And the tl;dr of it was: Holding that goalpost of yours so tight doesn't achieve anything since SE doesn't care about early feedback, no matter if you are right or wrong. So going after people when you read the word "Extreme" or "Savage" convinces no one and won't make SE accept feedback thrown away out of speculations all of a sudden. You can let your precious goalpost go where people think it's relevant.

[Ilenya]

See, your point would make more sense if the issue was ever only about the level 80 stuff. If that is all you are focusing on, then sure, you can comment about this not being enough, but the game is not and has never been only the level cap. There is stuff before it that needs to be taken into account, and I've called out on that multiple times over the weeks of this conversation. People who only focus on the 80 stuff are flat out ignoring that anything before it could matter, and yet, it still does. People don't suddenly start at the level cap. You work your way up there, and we are slowly losing things that we've had to work our way up the level ladder.

Do you find that okay?

[Fyce]

See, your point would make more sense if the issue was ever only about the level 80 stuff. If that is all you are focusing on, then sure, you can comment about this not being enough, but the game is not and has never been only the level cap. There is stuff before it that needs to be taken into account, and I've called out on that multiple times over the weeks of this conversation. People who only focus on the 80 stuff are flat out ignoring that anything before it could matter, and yet, it still does. People don't suddenly start at the level cap. You work your way up there, and we are slowly losing things that we've had to work our way up the level ladder.

Do you find that okay?

It's fine if old and leveling content is so important for you. But you should probably understand why past content and a leveling process that will take a few days at best, followed by literally 2 years of new content for Lv.80 characters is what some people would rather focus on.
You are accusing them of moving the goalpost you planted yourself in the exact spot where it matched your own opinions. And you refuse to acknowledge the fact that some people might not agree with the very location of that goalpost.
You tell people that they are lacking "any sense of self-awareness", but you don't realize yourself that your priorities might simply not be the same as the ones other people have.

So, focus on old and leveling content if you want. Post about the issues you see (but, I'll repeat myself: SE might not care until you can actually play the jobs, even if that seems backwards to you). But stop going after people who simply don't share what's important in your eyes. If people are more concerned with Extremes and Savage content because that's what they play the most, then just accept that you don't have the same concerns.
Heck, what you want to say about that content might not even be in contradiction with what they're thinking. But since you want to prevent them from talking about what they like, you put yourself against them by default.

If they want to see Extremes and Savage with their own eyes before providing feedback on that content then... Just let them do that. Why does it matter to you?

The way you oppose them is definitly not the way to try and make a better game for everyone. And I think we can agree that's the common goal everyone should share.

[MintnHoney]

I find that, when a player who primarily plays as DPS or Tank (generally while trying to avoid the healer role) throws themselves into these forums and try to tell career-healers, who are upset by the changes presented, with the evidence given, that they should be happy or that they themselves are happy with the changes, the argument usually ends up being "I'm the DPS/Tank, I'm the one who makes the HP go down, you're supposed to make my HP go not-down." And then, for some reason, as if it's as simple as that, it's all we're allowed to do and since we can still do that, we should be happy.
Then, because someone always does, a Healer will challenge that statement and complain that they don't like what is happening and present reasons, only to receive the same retort: "well maybe it'll be different, and you don't know how your role will end up, because I don't know what your role actually looks like or have taken the time to see how it could end up, and I don't want my parade to be rained on by you not liking being where I think you should be in the first place, which is what you're going to be anyway." The issue is then misinterpreted as being about healers wanting to be the DPS, but with healing abilities. And then the player begins to act as if they were toddlers from whom we're taking one of their precious toys away, and usually tries to pick at whatever scabs they can in order to pester whomever they had the disagreement with. Guardin, for instance.

The situation presented is much like how not every tank wants to move out of AoE indicators in order to help ensure his or her own survival, and like how not every DPS is willing to follow positionals or go into extended rotations in order to maintain top DPS. In both cases, they are still able to do their respective job duty: the DPS who ignores positionals and extended rotations still does DPS, and the tank who face-tanks everything likely continues to keep aggro (so long as he survives, I think to myself as I watch my beloved Josh, once again, eat an easily side-stepped Overpower in Thanalan as he levels up a Tank job in the style he believes that they should be played. Bless his soul.). They won't be the best player in the world, and clearing content might become extremely difficult, but they'll still be there. Not dodging and not optimizing. Forever and ever. And ever.

Well, the same principal of logic applies here: Healers can provide DPS while still healing whomever and whenever as necessary, and they also do not need to. Those that do, usually make the content go faster and smoother. Additionally, the function to provide DPS is required for the role to prosper as individuals and is one of few functions available to healers that would allow them to remain engaged as much as they desire.

Whether or not every player is willing to agree on what a role should do isn't the issue. Engagement is the very heart of the issues presented, and players want to be engaged at varying levels. What they should be interpreting from these complaints is that there is a concern that playtime within a game will not be fun. And you're right: since that is the concern, everyone should be looking to Yoshi and/or the Development Team to say something about it, or, if these concerns turn out to be substantiated, for the issues to be rectified.

I am personally well aware of Yoshi's stance on receiving feedback for the role prior to the expansion's release. This does not mean, however, that I am happy with his decision, nor does it absolve him of his potentially harmful design choices, and, until he or the rest of the design team make an official statement talking about their reasoning behind the decisions they've made, even the thought that they did any of this for the sake of healer "balance" is just hearsay. Reviewing the changes, honestly: he made the choices he made because he wanted the Tanks and DPS to have more fun, and for healers to facilitate their fun without necessarily caring if they were able to have any themselves. I can just see him lean back in a chair, put a finger to his cheek as he thumbs his earlobe, and hear him say, in his scratchy (oddly cute) Japanese Man voice, though not in the actual Japanese (because I don't know so much of the language myself), "Ah... they're healers right? They'll heal and be done with it. That'll be just fine. But what would be fun for my Black Mage..?"
Being honest, I don't think anyone who wants to complain will care whether or not Yoshi listens. It's only the people who want to have the game improve whom actually care and potentially become upset that he's ignoring the feedback while denying us indicative statements. It feels like he's just hoping we'll go away if he doesn't acknowledge us.
Wow, we're basically creditors now.

[Ilenya]

I dunno how people do the cut and comment styles, but let's respond as best I can, shall I?

Point 1: The fact that people focus on the end game TO THE APPARENT EXCLUSION OF EVERYTHING ELSE is what I have issues with. When people say "Ignore the stuff from the Titania fight, that doesn't matter" it, to me, means they don't actually seem to care about things leading up to the end-game at all. And since I've already seen people commenting we should wait until Savage, I am going to keep pointing out that that's a fairly unrealistic point to tell whether a job is viable or not.
Point 2: There are people who were saying "Wait until we actually played" who turned around and said "E3 Titania doesn't count." If that isn't moving goalposts, I'm not sure what is, but fine. This fits into the self-awareness comment as well.
I'll skip the next paragraph, because fair enough, but I would like to not one last thing from your final comment. We've seen on these forums already that people do not share the same opinion of what makes the game better. I've seen people arguing that healers shouldn't ever be DPSing without any regards on why that doesn't work with what we've been given, I've seen people arguing DPS shouldn't have any healing skills so healers would have to heal more (Which is a weird opinion, to me, but whatever) and many other things that would go against what other people consider "better for the game." I have had discussions about it, but at the same time, some people do not seem to be willing to listen to ideas beyond their own. And while maybe their opinions would have merit if SE's design ideas changed towards that route, nothing is showing that will ever be the case.

Could we hope there is some unifying perfect version of our FFXIV healers? Of course. But there are people who do not and will not actually discuss things. Common goals are nice, but "Better game for everyone" is just too broad.

Person A: We dont have enough data to confirm whether or not the changes are effective in the content they where built for. We should wait til we have that data until we make a conclusion.

Person B:Goal Posts! Goal Posts! Stop moving the Goal Posts!

Okay, I have to respond to this. Once again, people who have set AN INITIAL GOALPOST have moved them the moment we got more info.

[Brandedblade]

Person A: We dont have enough data to confirm whether or not the changes are effective in the content they where built for. We should wait til we have that data until we make a conclusion.

Person B:Goal Posts! Goal Posts! Stop moving the Goal Posts!

[HyoMinPark]

Your argument is valid on old content but we don't know how ShB content will be. Everything is pointing toward it requiring a greater deal of healing based on the way jobs are being designed.

More than likely the same as it is now. You think the Devs are going to require 75~90% healing uptime for a community that asks for solo MSQ fights to be nerfed because they're "too hard"? This game, as much as I love it, is fairly easy. Even the Ultimates barely require 50% healing uptime, and that's when you're playing it super safe and overhealing. There's no way they'd ever up the healing requirements to your standards.

Which is fine. I prefer being able to do both.

[Orbus]

Edit: I wouldn't mind needing to spend more time healing. I want to be engaged in the fight 100% of the time. I'm not bothered whether that is healing, dps, or a mix of the two.

This is my feeling on playing a healer.
I will always dps when I can, and heal when I must because that is always priority #1 as a dead player has a dps of 0.

But I feel there's a problem with boss encounter design when as a healer I can dps uninterrupted for upwards of 90%+ of a fight (unless someone screws up) because the only thing it challenges the healer on is how many off globals in your disposal.

[Semirhage]

Oh, Square Enix doesn't care about our criticism of data provided to us? Well pack it in everyone, guess we'd better eat bad design in silence for two years because someone on the forums told us to shut up and wait again.