The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons

[SoulEchelon]

Maybe I simply do not know the meaning of being a team player but to me being a team player is working with the overall group. Just because someone is new that does not give them a free pass, if the group simply does not want to deal with a new player they are free to try and remove said player. Sure it is a dick move, but no one is obligated to teach or hold anothers hand through content.

I think they are being a team player, expecting certain concessions to be made because they are new to me is not being a team player. While I have not been forcibly kicked as a tank for being new I have been asked by a group if it would be okay if they removed me since they saw I was not very comfortable with larger pulls when I started. I simply left and apologized for holding them back. Willfully holding a group of strangers back either because one does not feel comfortable or lacks the experience since like a messed up thing to do. In my eyes that is.

Rescuing a struggling team member no matter who they are into a mob of enemies is trolling and not being a team player. End of story.

[Hash_Browns]

IMO, seems like you like to assume things. The tank is supposed to lead the dungeon, yes. But it's a group effort. No one is the actual leader. The tank goes first because they're supposed to aggro everything. Stop putting words into my mouth.

Edit: You know what? I take that back. The tank IS the leader. They go in first. They initiate battle first. They dictate the run's flow. But that doesn't make them any more or less important than everyone else. And saying "there's no I in team" makes absolutely zero sense in anything that has been stated by me in this thread. All this time I've been advocating TEAM effort. TEAMwork. At this point you're just cobbling up buzzwords. A team leader works with the team. It is not all on their shoulders.

Never put words into your mouth, said "it seems like what you think," which you then confirmed in your edit. You're taking this thread too personally. Honestly, you have come off as unnecessarily hostile through out the entire thread, and at points just down right insulting - all over the fact that I think a person who doesn't know the role they queued for should be removed from the party.

This discussion is going to go around in circles because you personally seem to see the tank and the end-all-be-all of the party.
They aren't & if more then 1 person has a problem with how the tank is tanking, then showing them the door is a fine option.

[Shurrikhan]

The heck are you talking about. A ton of healers LIVE for healtanking because it's probably the most fun thing possible in normal modes.

Getting rid of the tank actually improves the gameplay experience for those remaining. It actually makes the encounters fresh again, and I've noticed bards in particular jump at the chance to kite mobs around. As soon as that tank gets kicked all three people in the party want to show just how useless that tank was by outdoing them.

It doesn't matter if a replacement tank never shows up again. It's more fun without one. Heck, it's better if the replacement tank shows up while the gate is up so they have to watch the samurai eat a buster and survive.

Yes, it's less "efficient" but if you're in a situation where you're kicking a tank for being slow you're not going to be speedrunning the dungeon with or without the tank. Might as well convert what could have been a speedrun (but with an uncooperative tank) into a novelty run.

At least you don't have to suffer the tank's ego.

To be fair, it was actually more efficient in certain dungeons back in ARR, where the mob packs could be perma-kited and the bosses hit like noodles. With a WHM, it was every bit as efficient, also, to just three-DPS-tank from the start, since Cure III and HoTs could be thus abused.

Even through Heavensward, though, I could "tank" (keeping threat off of casters and keeping specials out of where they'd force enemies to move) just fine on a Melee or Ranged whenever a tank decided to just up and leave. Have yet to try it except while a tank was simply afk in Stormblood, but that worked fine for many a mob pack and for a couple bosses.

[SoulEchelon]

Never put words into your mouth.....
This discussion is going to go around in circles because you personally seem to see the tank and the end-all-be-all of the party.

And there ya go. You just did it. Again. This is why I'm taking it personally. You're putting words in my mouth and ignoring everything I've stated throughout this whole thread about how everyone is important and teamwork is needed. You're living in your own world, and only seeing words you want to see that pushes your narrative. I am officially done with you.

Also I'm starting to realize I'm being dogpiled by three people who seem to absolutely hate the tank role. Here's the thing: I main DPS. In fact, I main Dragoon. The happiest I am is when I'm with a fast tank that knows what they're doing. But unlike you all, I'm not going to force them into a situation they aren't ready for, and I'm not going to kick them for being unfamiliar with mechanics or being slower than I want them to be. Recently I've been tanking alot more due to the DK tank mounts, and I've found a whole new appreciation for them. I started out scared shitless because I was constantly worried I was doing something wrong. And I had beligerent people like you force me into unfamiliar situations and get mad when I made a mistake because of it. I almost completely quit tanking until a healer gave me a pep talk and helped me through a dungeon I wasn't used to. The DPSes were also happy to help. They gave me the confidence I needed to push past my wariness and become better.

Now I'm one of the much faster tanks. I know my limits, can grab every mob until a stopping point in every endgame dungeon, can stance dance easily during boss battles, and can keep aggro without problem. I know what to look for, know how to keep my team alive, and I don't bash anyone for making a mistake. If someone's having trouble, I HELP THEM. I show them how to do it. I WORK WITH THEM. I don't call them names. I don't force them into bad situations. I don't bitch and moan and kick them for not playing how I want them to play. But I gotta say, if I had any of you in my team, and any of you acted like how you're acting here on these forums, I'd votekick you immediately - healer or not.

I'm out. Just know your mentalities are the main reason why we don't have many tanks in the first place. Bullying them, forcing them to play your way when they're having trouble, ridiculing them and branding them "Bad" because they're slower than your ideals, literally trolling them as they're trying to do their job...Nah. I hope to never see any of you in any of my parties.

[Awha]

Rescuing a struggling team member no matter who they are into a mob of enemies is trolling and not being a team player. End of story.

Rescuing a struggling team member can also be seen as a means of encouraging the person that is lagging behind. It is all about how you choose to interpret the action. For you it may be trolling, for me I view it has the healer is telling me they have my back and go ham.

The reality is the tank has kept their gear up to date, and the group knows what their are doing then at that point it is just a matter of trusting your group. Sure people can use rescue to troll, but the action of pulling the player itself is not trolling, intent behind why their were pulled should be considered.

[van_arn]

Rescuing a struggling team member no matter who they are into a mob of enemies is trolling and not being a team player. End of story.

Pfft, it's a great way to bring awareness to the sprint button and the single button tanks need to grab threat once they're in position. Not to mention it can get tanks to ask themselves if the healer isn't afraid of getting aggro, then why is the tank afraid of their shadow?

Now, if you're pulling a black mage into an aoe that's a nasty. But pulling a non-sprinting tank into a multipull when they can clearly handle it isn't, and is one of the best ways to break their tunnelvision and teach them the pulls.

[kazzel120]

It is better, because healtanking is a heck of a lot more fun than a tank terrified of his own shadow. Especially in later levels.

For everyone but the tank, of course, but the tank got kicked so they don't matter until they can come back with aoe.

Oh but the tank wasnt doing big pulls and now you have to do smaller pulls sounds like you just want to bitch just to bitch tbh.

Also if i ever had you in any group you best keep up with me and my 1 button press because you know thats all tanks do is hit the tank button and the rest happens lol.

[Miracle_Diva]

Yet I understand that it's better for a tank to pull, cuz it's going to be simply easier for everyone, some people's attitude here is quite funny.
*Aw you pull I will let you die* - not gonna teach the puller anything, and if they are not alone, you can easily be removed from group simply cuz you didn't do you job at any time, especially before the last boss (that's not gonna feel good). If the group decides you should pull more, you should. If someone's struggling, yes, it's ok to take it slow.

I play a lot of healer lately and I've met different tanks. I get that some people don't learn fast, they need their time, but if you don't start learning now, then when? When you get to lvl 70 content and say you're new? Yes, you've never cleared this dungeon, but you know what a mob looks like and that you need to fight them and you have your defensive skills which for some reasons some tanks are afraid or too shy to use. The tank should know how to play his class by that time. If you're new to anything and don't know something, feel free to say that in chat and ask questions - maybe you have an experienced tank\dps\healer playing another role. How often does this happen? People just stay silent most of the time, then get surprised that group decided they will be better off without you.
No one is the leader in a group of randoms. The Entire group decides how big pulls should be.
Sooooo many problems could be solved so easily if people would just TALK instead of showing off their ass attitude.

[van_arn]

Oh but the tank wasnt doing big pulls and now you have to do smaller pulls sounds like you just want to bitch just to bitch tbh.

Also if i ever had you in any group you best keep up with me and my 1 button press because you know thats all tanks do is hit the tank button and the rest happens lol.

The depressing thing is the number of tanks that don't do even that one button.

My personal favorite are the halone heroes that never break off of their first target.

[Lynesse]

It's true that a lot of tanks can handle more than they think. It's also true that, in certain circumstances, pushing a scared tank can help them grow.

SoulEchelon is absolutely right in that this isn't the sort of behavior most of us want to default to.

If you do, then good. You care about people enough that you want them to get better, just like the rest of us.

Everyone's right in this thread. You're not arguing against each other, really, you're just pointing out that X approach is sometimes better than Y.

You're all smart people, and you all make good decisions.