5.0 healer catastrophizing is illogical - Change My Mind

[zuzu-bq]

Excuse me ??
And even if this is the very little complexity left of AST, it's every 3 min...

But I agree with you about nocturnal stance & Sch case.

Thing is, yeah new system is simple. But so is the current one. So the current complexity that isn't really that great is maintained. Current system is just a mini card game, and from a card game point of view it's just a simple card fishing.

But yeah, they had a chance to try and fix Noct again and didn't. Neutral Sect will probably just consolidate WHM+Diurnal duos as the non-scholar comp.

[kidalutz]

I can see that this thread has devolved into much of the same stupidity and overreactions that the rest of the healer forum is going through.

I'll enjoy it when you guys are thoroughly embarrassed come ShB but there's only so many times I can literally restate the same things over and over to the same group of people.

Your lives would likely be much happier if you spent more time rationalizing and less time bandwagoning onto whatever bad thing someone else said, then you could spend the next mouth preparing for an expansion instead of whining on the internet about things it doesn't seem like you're able to understand.

This isn't all of you but it's too many for me to attempt to wrangle so peace, I'll go back to crafting and leave you to your illogical death spiral.

My mind was very much unchanged.

Just asking why would we want to change your mind again?

[Rahspdoy]

AST Changes

[LIST][*]The idea that AST identity was tied to suboptimal card use needs to die in a hole and be buried there. You aren't an AST because you throw Boles on tanks, you're an AST because of mobility and timing. Short cast times on Malefic, Lightspeed being generally amazing, ED and Star being two of the best and most interesting healing CDs in the game; these are the core of AST's identity... and also the prettiest spell animations, don't @ me.[*]People are mad about the cards. People need to actually think about how the cards work now, the rework and which set of cards requires more thought.

Right now you fish for an AoE Balance and you'll toss a Spear in a pinch. Bole and Arrow are for Minor Arcana. You know what you're doing with a card as you see the color of the sign show up.

In the new system the goal in the short term is actually to Minor Arcana as much as you can since it gives better buffs, but since they're single target ideally you should know who is going to be doing the best damage in the upcoming 15 seconds within a given role. Standard comp is 2melee/2ranged so you've still got choices to make there even once you know what you've drawn.

While giving out as many Ladys and Lords as you can you still need to fish up seals for Divination so now it becomes a game of do you fish first? Do you risk burning something like Sleeve Draw on just buffing your dps directly or do you use it to secure a successful Divination? AST feels more like a gambler here and I like that. It also synergizes better with the idea floating around of a potentially meta comp composed of mostly selfish dps, something we haven't seen before.

The thing is. Right 'now' Meta-players fish for Balance. In 5.0? Their now 'fishing for seals'.

The new system 'supposedly' cares which face of the coin you get so you can give it to the corresponding class (mele or ranged). But again.. meta-players dont care about the 'single-target' spell, they want that 'boosted' AOE spell. And how do you get that? you 'fish for seals'. There's not a single meta player that will not throw a mele-faced Balance onto a BLM if it gets them that 3rd seal they need to then use that 1 oh-so-helpful AOE buff.

The 2-sided coin we now have in place of a deck of cards is there simply to give you 'some' semblance of randomness, when in effect its the same exact buff.

The 3 seals are there to give you a mechanic to 'work for' in order to use that buff you 'really' want.

They could have simplified the entire thing into what it actually is by giving us 2 buttons instead of a flashy UI and a marginally complicated mechanic. 1 Button for the 'balance' buff, and 1 button with a set 3 minute cooldown that's the 'aoe balance'.

But.. the whole 'aoe buff' is what your saying is the new "goal" of Astro's correct? that its what they are 'based around' ? that its the magical buff that makes them Astros?

Every single party member can get a +8% Direct hit rate buff(which is essentially Balance i guess?), which lasts for up to 60 minutes, persists between deaths, + gives an added exp bonus. Simply by eating a Braised Pipira.

Why bring an Astro for its 1, single, buff. If you can get that same buff via a cheep food? Just replace the Astro with another WHM or a Scholar and make sure everyone in your static has the Pipira's.



That is what most Astro players are upset about. Vary few are upset about the HEALING aspect that got changed a bit. I like most of the changes honestly.

But the 'core' of what made us want to BE Astro's, instead of WHM's or Scholars. Has been torn down to the point of being no different then a food item being used.

[xXAzurePrimeXx]

Yess, everything in those post is exactly how I feel. Absolutely perfect and well thought out.

[Semirhage]

will we have to heal more or not? Until then, all this unnecessary doomsaying and bickering does nothing but make the healing community look incredibly childish and petty. Calm down, think logically, and wait until launch.

Two things:

1) there is no way they're going to make healers heal significantly more than they do now. No way. Not in 90% of this game's content. Do you remember the community flipout over Steps of Faith and the Royal Menagerie? The skill difference between the low and high end in this game is a chasm. Do more than bump the healing requirements up a bit and the community will lose its collective minds.

2) Even if bizarro world comes to us and they do massively raise healing requirements for some reason (the media preview dungeon videos confirm this isn't true), and if the community Matrix-downloads some much higher average level of skill in the next month, the first seventy levels of this game and all the dungeons, trials, raids, overworld, and solo instances are going to play like Sastasha for all three healers.

[IttyBitty]

will we have to heal more or not? Until then, all this unnecessary doomsaying and bickering does nothing but make the healing community look incredibly childish and petty. Calm down, think logically, and wait until launch.

This is the exact same garbage trotted out before HW and before Stormblood.

The only real change to combat was that overworld enemies became more dangerous, so you could only fight one or two at a time. Barely anything else has changed in how the dev team approaches encounters for healers beyond adding new mechanics. The majority of players are not terribly good*, and healers already struggle to heal at times with our ridiculously overpowered healing toolkits. Increasing the healing burden will harm them a lot more than those of us playing at the high end, because we really wouldn't give two flying figs if we were pressing green buttons instead of red buttons. We just want compelling decision making and gameplay systems while doing so.

SE has just stripped SCH and AST's compelling systems (Fairy Management, Aetherflow Management, Card management, buff management) down to the bone (WHM still lacks one), while also stripping down what little complexity in DPSing all healers had which gave high end players something to strive to improve. You don't need to "wait until launch" to see this.

*See The Chrysalis, The Vault, Bardam's Mettle, etc.

[Deceptus]

Two things:

1) there is no way they're going to make healers heal significantly more than they do now. No way. Not in 90% of this game's content.

Healers are damaging considerably in Ultimate. The hardest content in the game.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/23#class=Any

If you think they can bring up the damage floor considerably so people heal more and dps less when that happens? I've got a bridge to sell you.

I can't find the article atm, but in it FFXIV encounters were described as a dance. With periods of lots of things going on and periods of rest. That's where healers get time to DPS.

2) Even if bizarro world comes to us and they do massively raise healing requirements for some reason (the media preview dungeon videos confirm this isn't true), and if the community Matrix-downloads some much higher average level of skill in the next month, the first seventy levels of this game and all the dungeons, trials, raids, overworld, and solo instances are going to play like Sastasha for all three healers.

This. Hope you like hitting one dot and one filler spell in your downtime because you're going to be doing it from lvl 4 until lvl 80.

[Saefinn]

*snip*

Well said.

Whilst I think there is room for unseen variables and "wait and see" to a certain degree.

But when you know the jobs you play, the roles you play, how SE progresses the difficulty and battle systems expansion-by-expansion, then you've got a decent or strong idea of how changes are going to pan out. We may not immediately see how our jobs are balanced for what content there will be (as things like potency are subject to change and can depend on content). But of course, the issue isn't balance, but how the jobs play and what makes them interesting and SE has showcased this aspect.

Scholar is now even further from what I enjoyed about it.

Plus the thing is, the homogenisation isn't new either, healing has been more and more homogenised per expansion. From a healing perspective, SCH, WHM and AST don't feel too much different from each other at present.
Need mitigation? SCH has Adloquium & Succor. WHM has Divine Benison. AST has Nocturnal Sect.
Need a base heal? SCH has Physick. WHM has Cure. AST has Benefic.
Need strong single target heals? Scholar has Embrace + Physick (with Embrace AI controlled only now, we can use Lustrate still). White Mage has Cure II, Astrologian has Benefic II.
Need a HoT? SCH has Whispering Dawn and now Sacred Soil HoTs. WHM has Regen, Medica II, Asylum. AST has Diurnal Sect
Need an insta or emergency heal? SCH has Lustrate and Excogitation. WHM has Tetragammatron and I swear Benediction went off. AST has Lightspeed & Essential Dignity.
Need an insta or emergency AoE Heal? SCH has Indomitability. WHM has Assize and Plenary Indulgence (if lucky). AST has Earthly Star (if deployed, but can still be set off quickly in a pinch).
Need an AoE Heal? SCH has Emergency Tactics + Succor (or just Succor). WHM has Cure 3 and Medica. AST has Helios
Need a DoT? Now SCH has Biolysis. WHM now has Dia/Aero. AST has Combust.
Need to do Burst? SCH has Broil/Ruin. WHM has Stone. AST has Malefic.
Need to do AoE Damage? Now SCH has Art of War. WHM has Holy. AST has Gravity.

How well can each do the above? Considerably well. Except WHM probably weak in mitigation where SCH is weak in Regens, but both are effectively used in the same/similar context "people gonna take damage, this will keep their HP as they do".

Now the homogenisation has touched on DPS and others of healer gameplay.

Back in 2.0 SCH sucked in pure healing output, but made up for it in damage mitigation (not just shields) and you had to be smarter about how you did your heals to puts your output further. 2.0 WHM was great for pure heals. Both had means of DPSing, but WHM was burst, like a BLM and SCH was DoT based like a SMN. MP management was different, WHM refreshed, SCH used Aetherflow and Energy Drain. The end result the two felt different to play and had different benefits and strengths as healers, yet balanced enough.

[Semirhage]

Healers are damaging considerably in Ultimate. The hardest content in the game.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/23#class=Any

I'm aware of that, and fair point. The angle I was aiming for was something more like: Large increases to outgoing damage are highly doubtful, but if they did it to Ultimate, the people who run Ultimate would likely find a way to adjust if it didn't turn out to be unclearable, whereas a leveling dungeon that couldn't be defeated by GROG SMASH MEDICA 2 would make the forums explode in a maelstrom much bigger than current healer outcry.

[AureliaF]

2) Even if bizarro world comes to us and they do massively raise healing requirements for some reason (the media preview dungeon videos confirm this isn't true), and if the community Matrix-downloads some much higher average level of skill in the next month, the first seventy levels of this game and all the dungeons, trials, raids, overworld, and solo instances are going to play like Sastasha for all three healers.

Man, this bears repeating again. So well said. As a returning player leveling a new Scholar, I'm cringing thinking of my Bane/Miasma but *especially* my Energy Drain being removed. In every solo thing I do in the open world, I'll just be spamming Ruin x100000 until I fall asleep on my keyboard. From a returning player/new player perspective, it's really a strange choice. If the level 76-80 or so extreme/savage content requires heavy healing and whatnot, I can understand the changes, but what about the rest of us dying of boredom until we get there? [edit: I do know of course that I can swap to Summoner to do my open world/MSQ stuff, but the point is, I've never needed to do that before, and have enjoyed playing my healer in open world as well.]