Healers in 5.0

[Melichoir]

snip

Depending how the skills fit into the content matters, not just the skills in a vacuum. You notice tanks now have AoE shielding, or that classes like summoner have their phoenix that applies a Regen? There's a lot of changes that are spreading the burden of certain roles. This could also indicate changes in the fight and how they operate. So yeah, waiting till the xpac drops before getting your knickers in a twist is actually a pragmatic PoV. Because argue all you want, til your blue in the face if need be, everything here is speculation and educated guesses at best. Not 100% concrete facts. Until the xpac drops and we get the 'live' version, this is all guess work.

For everyone who still wants to have a go at this, consider the changes to healers:

WHM - Getting some better DPS skills, some regens and insta-cast stuff. Its becoming more dynamic, thus rounding it out. Youll still be probably best healer, but you now have a bit more in the DPS compartment.
SCH - Youre getting greater potency healing and more job specific abilities at the cost of some of your DPS abilities. Theyre reducing SCH damage out put in favor of giving it more Healing output and being more healing directed. It still is the DPS healer, just not as DPSy as it was, but its granting you better healing capacity in return. Again, they are Rounding out the healer class to be more dynamic.
AST - Changes mainly to the card System allowing for less RNG overall, some 'lesser' changes in damage skills and healing.

These are just quick breakdowns, and can be found on reddit. Yes, there was a little bit of trimming from DPS on AST and SCH, but that was balanced against more healing and other changes in playstyle and management. If youre whole focus on SCH was to essentially just let Eos or Selene heal while you dps, that sucks. Go learn summoner. If you wanted more dps as a WHM, congrats, youre getting that. If you wanted less RNG in cards, GJ, thats coming your way. This isnt some attempt by the devs to say "Screw healers, we hate them! Lets make them ultra boring."

Lastly, It's worth noting that (if Im understanding things correctly) not all the reworks and skills have been released. Most of it has, but not all of it. Things are still subject to change when the xpac drops, such as potencies and CDs and the like. So as I said, gettign your knickers in a twist at this point is stupid. Just wait for the xpac. Be upset if you want, but this nonsense about "Woe is Healer, all is terrible, Screw you SE!" is a bit much. Calm down. Play the game when it drops. It still sucks, then find a new class or quit.

The team basically wants healer jobs to purely heal...While dps jobs get to dps (with each job being completely different from one another), buff and heal.

Pure healer, fromt what I understand, in Japanese context does not mean only healing - it means healers with more Shield/Regen abilities. If it was just about only healing, WHM would not have been given a DPS increase.

[Kyohei]

It's not just about the dps potency. It's about fun and game feeling.

Having a dps rotation within SCH, along with both fairies micro-management added much flavour to the job, just like having healing and raise does to RDM.
Having different cards with completely different buffs to play with also added flavour to AST, just like it does to BRD and will too to DNC.
My view is that dps are very different with their dps kit but also with their utility, and i hoped they would have treated healers the same way.

Including dps rotation along with fairy management and healing made SCH being a very fun job to play with always something to do, decisions to take, lots of micro-management aside from healing. AST had the cards to redraw, choose, burn, a lot of decision making too which makes it fun.
Taking these away for the sake of pure healing only is sad, and yes, pure healing in terms of more shield/regen. According to me these two are of the core toolkit of healers, but they need something more, just like dps got a core toolkit and something more.

[Rubiss]

SCH - Youre getting greater potency healing and more job specific abilities at the cost of some of your DPS abilities. Theyre reducing SCH damage out put in favor of giving it more Healing output and being more healing directed. It still is the DPS healer, just not as DPSy as it was, but its granting you better healing capacity in return. Again, they are Rounding out the healer class to be more dynamic.

This is just wrong. SCH is by no means a DPS healer in 5.0. WHM has more DPS going for it. SCH had they're aetherflow ruined. You have no way to actually use excess stacks by properly managing aetherflow. You're expected to spam lustrate to keep your fairy gauge going. Without Energy Drain or some sort of DPS move or buff that is built off of Aetherflow stacks, you are effectively lowering the skill ceiling to critical levels.

[Schan]

For everyone who still wants to have a go at this, consider the changes to healers:

WHM - Getting some better DPS skills, some regens and insta-cast stuff. Its becoming more dynamic, thus rounding it out. Youll still be probably best healer, but you now have a bit more in the DPS compartment.
SCH - Youre getting greater potency healing and more job specific abilities at the cost of some of your DPS abilities. Theyre reducing SCH damage out put in favor of giving it more Healing output and being more healing directed. It still is the DPS healer, just not as DPSy as it was, but its granting you better healing capacity in return. Again, they are Rounding out the healer class to be more dynamic.
AST - Changes mainly to the card System allowing for less RNG overall, some 'lesser' changes in damage skills and healing.

These are just quick breakdowns, and can be found on reddit. Yes, there was a little bit of trimming from DPS on AST and SCH, but that was balanced against more healing and other changes in playstyle and management. If youre whole focus on SCH was to essentially just let Eos or Selene heal while you dps, that sucks. Go learn summoner. If you wanted more dps as a WHM, congrats, youre getting that. If you wanted less RNG in cards, GJ, thats coming your way. This isnt some attempt by the devs to say "Screw healers, we hate them! Lets make them ultra boring."

Lastly, It's worth noting that (if Im understanding things correctly) not all the reworks and skills have been released. Most of it has, but not all of it. Things are still subject to change when the xpac drops, such as potencies and CDs and the like. So as I said, gettign your knickers in a twist at this point is stupid. Just wait for the xpac. Be upset if you want, but this nonsense about "Woe is Healer, all is terrible, Screw you SE!" is a bit much. Calm down. Play the game when it drops. It still sucks, then find a new class or quit.



Pure healer, fromt what I understand, in Japanese context does not mean only healing - it means healers with more Shield/Regen abilities. If it was just about only healing, WHM would not have been given a DPS increase.

I'm sorry Melichoir but I have to disagree with some things.
The whole complaint regarding WHM throughout HW and SB was exactly that. It only healed. You see, when you need to make content work for every healer you end up catering to the weakest healer. WHM was all about the big number heals which was basically wasted because nothing in the game required such a massive healing output and if it did then it would be unbalanced and would made WHM mandatory because the other healers wouldn't be able to keep up (and even then... SCH is OP. A single Indom can top up a party and guess what? it's oGCD so you can keep DPSing to your hearts content, but i'm not going down that rabbit hole)
So considering most of the healing potency on WHM was wasted, what else did they have to show for it? Almost endless MP that would only be needed if people mess up or... you guessed it. DPS.
Unfortunatly healer is that role that has its difficulty based solely on how well or poorly others perform.

I mean when doing 24 man raids I would play AST and I could solo heal most of the nukes on my own. There is this massive build-up to the epic boss special attack, everyone shields and heals.... and i can top up the entire party with Collective Unconscious and Earthly Star more often than not. The other healer might as well sit there twiddling his/her thumbs (or /dance).

Because of the way fights were scripted and the fact that normally things hit like wet noodles healers ended up having a lot of downtime so what some people decided to do? DPS because you might as well make things go faster. Gamers in general are all about efficient use of their time (not everyone can sit in front of their computer for 12+ hours)

Saying people getting "their knickers in a twist is stupid" is a bit rude. I don't agree with the people who are saying that their class is utterly destroyed because of the changes because I sit on the "let's wait and see" camp, but I perfectly understand why people are concerned about their favorite role. I don't main healer and even I'm worried for the healers.

Lastly, regarding that final sentence or yours, would you care to elaborate why you're fine with healers having shield and healing and less DPS capabilities yet every other job now gets to dip their toes in healing?
DPSers can heal and support, Tank can heal and DPS but god forbid if Healers dip their toes into DPSing. They should just stick to just healing! It feels like a slap on their face. Why was support moved from healing and shoved even more into DPS? Why?

edit: also if they don't change the WHM potency the "extra dps" i actually a dps loss. You're better off spamming the new equivalent of stone if you want damage

[Melichoir]

My real big problem with the whole gutting dps skills for healing is, no matter what ShB content is like i very highly doubt they will change ARR, HW and SB content to be balanced around these changes for healers so even if ShB changes design on how much healing is required a new player who wants to play healer would have to get up to lv 70/71 to do ShB with 1 DoT 1 dmg skill and a boatload of unnecessary healing skills.

Low level roulettes will be way more boring for hlrs , ARR made pld the 1,2,3 meme this is worse by far, sometimes more buttons can be good there should always be a reasonable skill gap so that it is rewarding to push oneself if you wished

Welcome to SMN when SB dropped, along with other classes. I admit this is a problem, but this isnt a new problem and its not one that is unique to sch.

snip.

Im not seeing where youre disagreeing with me. They literally just buffed WHM dmg, gave them a bit more flexibility in healing, and now mana is capped so how mana is gonna play out is a whole new ball game. They ended up Rounding out some of WHMs kit. So yay? More great stuff for WHMs? As for 24 mans...well thas a design and gearing issue. Bosses wont be hitting so phenomenally hard that it would require a lot of coordination between groups to be beaten cause...well...average player isnt great at it. The bar for skill goes down with 24 mans, not up. Mechanics are simpler and more straight foward. And if youre a good healer or overly geared, it's gonna be a breeze typically. I kinda wouldnt use a 24 man as a measuring stick for balance. Hell, 8 man trials and 4 man dungeons are probably better for that.

Furthermore, youre arguing context. Bosses dont hit like wet noodles in Savage. How the game handles damage and boss mechanics in ShB is also gonna determine whether or not you have time to be dpsing. And dont remember if I mentioned it when, but if you want to show concern, fine. That's reasonable. The knickers ina twist crowd are teh doomsayers, screaming how everything is terrible. The "How dare they do 'x'! I nkow for a fact (even though the game isnt live yet, nor do we have 100% of all the skills, or how fight mechanics will play out) that this will be ultra boring and terrible! Game/class ruined! Thanks obama!" is utter nonsense.

Lastly, regarding that final sentence or yours, would you care to elaborate why you're fine with healers having shield and healing and less DPS capabilities yet every other job now gets to dip their toes in healing?
DPSers can heal and support, Tank can heal and DPS but god forbid if Healers dip their toes into DPSing. They should just stick to just healing! It feels like a slap on their face. Why was support moved from healing and shoved even more into DPS? Why?

Rounding out and giving two rotations is two different htings. Giving a DPS a utility where they can pop a heal or res isnt the same thing as giving SCH the ability to be a full healer and a full DPS. Itd be like saying that while you play NIN, you also get to cast Regens, shields, heavy heals, and Damage buffs as oGCD that are just as or nearly as powerful as healers. This is the problem with the SCH point: Some are mad theyre losing some of their DPS kit in return for getting improvements to be better healers - you know, the roll that they are. Of the healers, SCH gets hit the hardest in trimming hte DPS kit compared to the other two. But thats because its kit was pretty dps heavy comparatively. Meanwhile, WHM is getting buffs to its nearly non-existent DPS kit to have some DPS. And based on what Im reading, it still feels like SCH will be the highest damage dealing Healer in a fight, with WHM being the lowest but best healer and AST being in the middle.

[Crushnight]

Welcome to SMN when SB dropped, along with other classes. I admit this is a problem, but this isnt a new problem and its not one that is unique to sch.

Yep i was there >_> its been a problem but i am finding it hard to encourage new healers with these changes because these changes very much seem like they are aimed at ShB content rather than general content which because the way the game is designed new players will either have to go through the 1-70 msq(which i usually recommend) or pay for skip and their experience from a gameplay level will have barely changed because everything in this game atm is designed around less healing needed than what these changes are going to do which means they are button bloat, no matter how you look at things pre ShB content is going to be worse off than it is currently for healers and i dread saying this but i may actually want very undergeared tanks in leveling roulette just so i don't get bored >_>

[Kyohei]

Rounding out and giving two rotations is two different htings. Giving a DPS a utility where they can pop a heal or res isnt the same thing as giving SCH the ability to be a full healer and a full DPS. Itd be like saying that while you play NIN, you also get to cast Regens, shields, heavy heals, and Damage buffs as oGCD that are just as or nearly as powerful as healers. This is the problem with the SCH point: Some are mad theyre losing some of their DPS kit in return for getting improvements to be better healers - you know, the roll that they are. Of the healers, SCH gets hit the hardest in trimming hte DPS kit compared to the other two. But thats because its kit was pretty dps heavy comparatively. Meanwhile, WHM is getting buffs to its nearly non-existent DPS kit to have some DPS. And based on what Im reading, it still feels like SCH will be the highest damage dealing Healer in a fight, with WHM being the lowest but best healer and AST being in the middle.

They should've reduce the potencies instead of removing it all, then it wouldn't have been full healer and dps as you say. Even though i'm sure it's not actually doing as much damage as an actual dps, so we can't talk about it being both a full healer and dps.

But again, it's all about having something to do aside from healing because healing is an adjusting job, not one with a rotation to be kept busy all the time.
I believe it's not much of a dps loss that's the issue but an entertainment loss, for getting less things to do.

[Melichoir]

They should've reduce the potencies instead of removing it all, then it wouldn't have been full healer and dps as you say. Even though i'm sure it's not actually doing as much damage as an actual dps, so we can't talk about it being both a full healer and dps.

But again, it's all about having something to do aside from healing because healing is an adjusting job, not one with a rotation to be kept busy all the time.

Admittedly, SCH obviously isnt a full DPS. But in comparison to how DPS/TANK handle some off role utility as well as how the other healer's manage dps, SCH was a particularly DPS heavy class. Trimming back Potencies couldve been a solution, but then its buton bloat and people saying "How dare they remove our DPS! Its gonna be WHM now. Thanks alot! >"

I mean consider it this way. DPS have a DPS rotation that can throw in a support utility every now and then. The equivalent of this among healers is to have a Healer Rotation (or management) that can throw in a DPS attack every now and then. This will all be dependent on how content is handled in ShB. For better or worse, I give the devs enough credit to know that if healing is fairly easy, that the classes would be boring as well if theyre just spamming 1 attack and healing every 10 GCDs. I personally think ShB will be more healing intensive than the last two xpacs and youll have a lot less time to sit back adn pop out tons of DPS (for a healer).

[SturmChurro]

I personally think ShB will be more healing intensive than the last two xpacs and youll have a lot less time to sit back adn pop out tons of DPS (for a healer).

I'd personally rather have it this way, so you have to think on when you are going to time the cast on this heal, or try to get a little extra dps in, rather than just spamming stone all day long with the occasional heal popped off.

[Kyohei]

Admittedly, SCH obviously isnt a full DPS. But in comparison to how DPS/TANK handle some off role utility as well as how the other healer's manage dps, SCH was a particularly DPS heavy class. Trimming back Potencies couldve been a solution, but then its buton bloat and people saying "How dare they remove our DPS! Its gonna be WHM now. Thanks alot! >"

I mean consider it this way. DPS have a DPS rotation that can throw in a support utility every now and then. The equivalent of this among healers is to have a Healer Rotation (or management) that can throw in a DPS attack every now and then. This will all be dependent on how content is handled in ShB. For better or worse, I give the devs enough credit to know that if healing is fairly easy, that the classes would be boring as well if theyre just spamming 1 attack and healing every 10 GCDs. I personally think ShB will be more healing intensive than the last two xpacs and youll have a lot less time to sit back adn pop out tons of DPS (for a healer).

They would've been very wrong to state such things since WHM would actually got two buttons to push and SCH would still be busy managing the short dps rotation... Would rather have downgraded potency but still enough to do than pushing two buttons.
Even if ShB will put up more healing challenge (which i'm actuallly not trusting the devs with), more than half of the time we're bound to play older duties because we have to do roulettes for tomestones. That's how they designed the game sadly, and it'll make playing healer a pain real quick.

I understand what you mean, but the healers management can't be equivalent to a full dps rotation in terms of "player input/second" if that's understandable. So the dps attack every now and then is actually a spamming in between heals.
Even if it's not dpsing, just having healing + something else to manage will be just good.