"Tanks and Healers do too much Damage..."

[Lynesse]

I don't think that comment was addressing numbers. I think that comment was addressing behaviors. In that there are large numbers of tanks and perhaps a slightly lesser number of healers that prioritize dps output over their actual role. While doling out damage to the best of your ability is pretty much always ace, it should not overshadow your role to the point of expecting others to carry that burdern so you can maximize your personal numbers. This whole 'party is responsible for emnity/mitgation' is just enabling this type of behavior. The party is responsible for working together to the best of their ability to clear the content--whether that also includes meeting each others expectations of what that exactly entails is ultimately up to the participants. Supporting each other, whether its by avoiding unnecessary damage or being aware of your personal enmity or using party buffs or just adjusting to party performance is what we should be doing instead of focusing on just damage. Period. That seems to be how we judge success--not how well we performed our job or helped the party or came through a less than ideal situation but DEM NUMBERS YO.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about that and not how much damage, number-wise anyone is actually doing.

I can agree with this.

It's fun to weave oGCDs in such a way that I'm doing two jobs at once. But the numbers race has created a culture of risk-taking. It doesn't feel right because our instincts -- as human beings -- are telling us this much risk-taking isn't a sustainable way to survive.

[Kalise]

And the suggestion that healers need to gcd heal more is also flawed. Pressing a different keybind every other gcd doesn't make healing "more interesting", its literally just pressing cure II instead of stone IV.

This line of thinking is flawed.

"Pressing Cure II instead of Stone IV is the same thing" only makes sense in the scenario that damage remains predictable and you merely are pressing Cure II within the same frequency that you're casting Stone IV's so something like rotating Stone IV > Cure II > Stone IV > Cure II.

As opposed to GCD heals being used to react to sudden, random, damage spikes, wherein you might need to *Shock* cancel your Stone IV and toss out a quick Cure II to keep someone alive. You know... Actually using your available tools to react to a situation, as opposed to merely swapping one pre-determined rotation of skills and CD's for another.

(Though, logically, the solution for more interesting healing is to make GCD heals the high throughput healing to for example, deal with Busters and failed mechanics. While oGCD's are the "Emergency" heals that are weaker, but instantaneous so can quickly bring someone to a more stable life total to allow for a GCD heal to come through and top them off in case more random damage occurs and kills them. Though, this requires tuning down how ridiculous oGCD's are as well as designing encounters to not be so darn predictable)

[van_arn]

I do want tanks and healers to do less damage overall, though I do like the design of a focus on damage instead of just sitting there idle. Basically keep the rotations the same, but make the result smaller. This is true more for tanks than for healers.

Not for the reasons everyone keeps harping on about, like it's not their "role." But because I want to see more groups with subpar damage dealers fail dps checks. Tanks/healers are able to carry a terrible dps player in too many situations right now, and that really shouldn't be the design.

Too many dps players are sneaking into groups because of the lack of "responsibility." That lack of responsibility needs to be brought more in line with what healers/tanks deal with.

[Zarkovitch]

they don't do damage they help with damage that's a big difference.

[Jandor]

I quite like the damage focus to be honest. FFXIV feels unique in that it has a rather rigid trinity design where tanks and healers are essential, but at the same time everyone is also kind of a damage dealer too.

Usually "everyone does damage" designs scrap the tanks and heals altogether.

[Sanctify]

Sometimes, however, one can do too much dps and pull hate from the tanks, even while using the enmity dumps available to you. I've seen good tanks and bad tanks, same goes for dps. I guess those bad tanks have given me some prep for being a tank though once Gunbreaker goes live, since I have been involuntarily made into one at points.

A healer pull too much dps and rip aggro from a tank?? Trust me if that happens its 1000% not a healer problem, coach the tank on how to tank or replace them.

[ElroyDrundan]

I'll be following this quite closely.

To be honest I'm really confused why they think this is an issue. As the savage dps table showed, healers aren't doing close to what dps are in raids.

In dungeons it can be another matter... On Trash healers can out dps bad/lazy dps. Playing WHM with my Warrior friend on some trash we will be top 2. But that is usually with bad/avg dps and thank god we can, else dungeons would take forever.

If they mess this up(nerf dps of healers across the board) then I'm probably done with healing, and maybe the game as I'm not sure I could stomach the resulting dps queues.

I would totally be fine with increasing healing requirements in raids.

If the excuse is well healers are prioritizing dps over healing. No amount of dev work can fix crappy healers...

[Vahlnir]

A healer pull too much dps and rip aggro from a tank?? Trust me if that happens its 1000% not a healer problem, coach the tank on how to tank or replace them.

I've seen it happen but I was not referring to healer dps.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

I'll be following this quite closely.

To be honest I'm really confused why they think this is an issue. As the savage dps table showed, healers aren't doing close to what dps are in raids.

In dungeons it can be another matter... On Trash healers can out dps bad/lazy dps. Playing WHM with my Warrior friend on some trash we will be top 2. But that is usually with bad/avg dps and thank god we can, else dungeons would take forever.

If they mess this up(nerf dps of healers across the board) then I'm probably done with healing, and maybe the game as I'm not sure I could stomach the resulting dps queues.

I would totally be fine with increasing healing requirements in raids.

If the excuse is well healers are prioritizing dps over healing. No amount of dev work can fix crappy healers...

Nerfing healer DPS would make me wonder if even an ilvl 400 healer could meet the DPS check on the Zenos solo fight. It is already tight as it is and I needed an assize to get it down before the failure along with my dots and stones.

Any solo instance with a DPS check would need a few tries I'd guess to get enough echo going.

[Tlachtga]

This line of thinking is flawed.

"Pressing Cure II instead of Stone IV is the same thing" only makes sense in the scenario that damage remains predictable and you merely are pressing Cure II within the same frequency that you're casting Stone IV's so something like rotating Stone IV > Cure II > Stone IV > Cure II.

As opposed to GCD heals being used to react to sudden, random, damage spikes, wherein you might need to *Shock* cancel your Stone IV and toss out a quick Cure II to keep someone alive. You know... Actually using your available tools to react to a situation, as opposed to merely swapping one pre-determined rotation of skills and CD's for another.

(Though, logically, the solution for more interesting healing is to make GCD heals the high throughput healing to for example, deal with Busters and failed mechanics. While oGCD's are the "Emergency" heals that are weaker, but instantaneous so can quickly bring someone to a more stable life total to allow for a GCD heal to come through and top them off in case more random damage occurs and kills them. Though, this requires tuning down how ridiculous oGCD's are as well as designing encounters to not be so darn predictable)

I'm not and never will be a fan of completely random almost lethal damage going out just because some people think healers need to heal more...having the tank getting randomly trucked isn't fun for tanks and not for healers.

Now if it was a debuff where over a period of time(let's say 30s for example) the damage could go out I could see it being sorta okay. knowing for that 30s, you might have to cancel a cast for a cure II would be acceptable.

I don't really think there's an issue with tank/healer dmg, other than WHM being a meme. I think the bigger issue is fight design. Its extremely predictable, but I don't think complete randomness is the way forward.