"Tanks and Healers do too much Damage..."

[linay]

I think the good enough mentality comes from how easy content really is. When you can put forth 10% effort and still clear 100% of the time what reason is there to do more.

Encounters are tuned to low and far to forgiving. Especially so on a dungeon level where you can basically ignore the hell out of every mechanic and just mash away at some buttons and still win while watching Netflix...

I'm sure that's a big reason for it. This is why, for higher end contents, it's necessary to have some sort of DPS checks to ensure that you do perform better than usual in order to clear the content.

I also think encounter design is a problem in many ways. Scripted encounters are boring you always know what's coming next and it takes a lot of the fun out of a fight which again is why people just mash buttons and watch Netflix instead..

scripted encounters are also why tanks and healers do so much damage. when a healer knows they'll need to toss 1 lustrate or ED in 20 seconds and maybe 1 aoe heal in 45 seconds... and thats them covered for the next minute... what are they supposed to do....

I'm of two minds about this. I think non-scripted content can be nice in terms of unpredictability when you're farming it over and over again and want some variety in the fight. On the other hand, that predictability also helps in progression, especially if you want to go in blind.

[Barraind]

Healers and tanks do too much damage for an MMO that needs healers to prioritize healing and tanks to prioritize not dying and threat generation.

14 isnt that MMO.

Its mechanics are awful from that standpoint. If you want to make tanks and healers do less damage, you need to make it a requirement for them to be in tank stance using aggro combos and gcd's that arent maximizing damage, and you need to make healers have to spend gcd's casting heals.

[Seraphor]

I think lowering rdps buffs from dps jobs is the way to go, or at least reserve it just to those few "support dps" jobs, BRD, DNC, and maybe RDM and NIN.

Give rdps buffs to healers, giving them more to contribute and focus on besides their own dps, and therefore more material to work with in regards to balancing them, instead of just the regen/shield dichotomy.

[linay]

I had a syrcus tower run yesterday that had 2, almost 3 wipes to Glasya labolas, because the dps wasn't enough to burn him before his initial boom. I have seen a wipe there in.... 4 years?

So clearly they were not good enough.

We also saw 5 analysis from mustadio in orbonne..... I hadn't ever seen more than 3 before that, and only a couple of times.

Thankfully that's not the norm. Of course it can happen, and obviously it sucks when it takes much longer to complete things than should be necessary, which is more reason for DPS checks to get people to realize that they're not doing good enough. Otherwise, yes it takes longer, and yes people will have to do more work due to the longer time for fighting, but unless people are dying, longer fight and not skipping mechanics doesn't really mean you're not good enough from the game's point of view. It's basically the whole "skip soar" idea.

[Mistyregions]

Well why have a tank class then?

[Kalise]

This doesnt make sense.

Ok, so the Devs set the DPS checks in the game, so if the tanks/heals do to much damage, its only because they set a DPS check that needs tanks and healers to deal a set amount of damage.

It makes perfect sense if you think that maybe they designed DPS checks to factor in DPS players playing optimally.

With Tank/Healer DPS being additional benefits to reduce the need for perfection from DPS.

With "Too much damage" being that Tank/Healer DPS is so high that it allows for sub-optimal DPS play to still beat enrage timers.

Which could lead to a buff in the amount of damage DPS do (Or nerf to the amount of damage Tanks/Healers do) to shift more of the DPS check work onto the DPS roles and away from Tanks/Healers being able to cover up poor DPS players.

Though it depends on just how much Tanks/Healers are "Doing too much damage" and in what ways.

Like, Tanks already have to deal with Fending accessories being poorly statted with barely any STR on them meaning that Penta-STR melded Crafted accessories are BiS for a majority of the expansion.

What would their DPS be if they weren't hampered by this?

Of course, it's also hard to tell if they're actually including tDPS as a factor, since in terms of pDPS, Tanks aren't all that far away from Ninja's pDPS, but NIN has far more tDPS due to how Trick Attack is OP pretty good.

Though... At the end of the day, it's worth discussing.

Since, this sort of thing doesn't have to make sense, as game developers seem to like listening to a handful of bad DPS players and then gutting Tanks ability to do damage as a result.

Then they sit around wondering why no-one is playing the gimpy role that doesn't do damage and just sits there spamming Taunts because they don't design proper mitigation gameplay and DPS cry if they deal damage...

[hynaku]

Know pld and whm sure doesn't do huge damage. They don't need to nerf healers damage. It make soloing instance even harder to complete. If think they do to much damage maybe its you that's doing to little damage.

[347SPECTRE]

I will start off saying, I'm not the best tank. I will use a recent Shinryu run I did for ships and giggles. Not too sure about the SMN, but he also seemed to be about my level maybe even greater.

But to get to the point, I pulled 5k dps (WAR btw) and the SMN pulled 8k dps. I did 62.5% of the SMN's dps. That seems like a pretty good difference in dps between tanks and dps, at least to me.

[linay]

I will start off saying, I'm not the best tank. I will use a recent Shinryu run I did for ships and giggles. Not too sure about the SMN, but he also seemed to be about my level maybe even greater.

But to get to the point, I pulled 5k dps (WAR btw) and the SMN pulled 8k dps. I did 62.5% of the SMN's dps. That seems like a pretty good difference in dps between tanks and dps, at least to me.

Isn't SMN on the higher end of DPS? That said, I don't think percentage matters. If best Tank job (in terms personal+group damage) can do 90% of worst DPS job, that's still good in my opinion.

[347SPECTRE]

Isn't SMN on the higher end of DPS? That said, I don't think percentage matters. If best Tank job (in terms personal+group damage) can do 90% of worst DPS job, that's still good in my opinion.

Don't have the data on hand to compare at the moment. Just trying to give an example of the difference. It's nearly a 40%difference and honestly I'd say up to a 30% difference is good enough IMO.

Also, that 90% of dps is when they're at different skill levels, in a situation where skill levels are the same, the dps will always be a good margin ahead in dps.