Gender/Racial Locking in 2019

[Mistyregions]

Because it's the designer vision for gender locked gear and races, stop forcing things. If you dont respect the artist and designer vision for the game, please find another one and forcing your opinions and wants and desires into something that wasn't intended for.

[Gemina]

Im not saying everything should be gendered(as high heals were actually for men in France at first, as an example), its worth noting that saying "Just remove the genderlock on gear" wont exactly be so straight forward and probably wont yield the results people expect. There will still be gendered clothing.

Not disagreeing with you, but wanted to bring up some things about heels.

Heals for men are still around to this day, and perfectly acceptable for them to wear. They can be found on both boots and dress shoes in various fashion designs. The initial intention with them wasn't really to add height but actually had a utilitarian purpose revolving around equestrian. Latter down the road they took on to a more fashionable demographic, and today's dress shoes for men typically have a heel of some sort.

A little further is when women adopted them into their attire. Again, height wasn't the sole purpose and more and more women began wearing them because it made their feet look smaller. Over time, heels for women became more pointed at the toe, and higher at the heel. Today, 'high-heels' can't really be associated with men at all as they refer specifically to heels that are hardly functional outside of adding 3+ inches to a woman's height, making the foot look smaller, the legs longer, and the buttocks more raised and firmer. Even though many girls have learned to walk and even run to a certain extent in them; they are not practical by any means and are even detrimental over the long term. Girls whose feet absolutely hated them after a night of dancing will most certainly vouche for this.

In short. If heels like this ever make it into the game:



Devs will genderlock them and throw away the key. Heels for men are fine, if they are indeed designed for men.

[linay]

Also, there are not only two sexes, that's invalidating intersex individuals who are born with both (and yes, before the inevitable "it's an exception, not the rule" then how do you treat them socially? it's not the same as being born deaf or blind, and we still have measures for them).

You treat them on a case by case basis depending on the actual effect their intersex has on the body.

Well, no. There's numerous chromosome strand variations i.e. Klinefelter's syndrome.

And yet that particular syndrome is acknowledged as occurring on boys and men (males). Chromosomal variation does not necessarily dictate actual physical result, or dictate them to varying degrees. So it is still correct to say humans have two sexes. Any rare variation should be treated on a case by case basis depending on the actual effect of the variation on each individual.

[rachcouture]

You treat them on a case by case basis depending on the actual effect their intersex has on the body.

No, you let them make their own decision. Being intersex isn't a disease.

And yet that particular syndrome is acknowledged as occurring on boys and men (males). Chromosomal variation does not necessarily dictate actual physical result, or dictate them to varying degrees. So it is still correct to say humans have two sexes. Any rare variation should be treated on a case by case basis depending on the actual effect of the variation on each individual.

And yet it still has effects that relate more to being intersex than anything else. Dated terminology doesn't change that whatsoever. Regardless, there are other examples that affect women, and some that can affect both (i.e. X0/XY mosaicism) making this a moot argument. Sex is not as simple as binary no matter how much you want it to be.

[whiskeybravo]

Sex is not as simple as binary no matter how much you want it to be.

Yes, it is, no matter how much you don't want it to be. Some disfigured middle ground doesn't make a new gender. People have and will continue to be born with deformities, it doesn't make them "non-human".

Riddle me this.. In recent news a "transgender man" (aka, formerly female) gave birth to a stillborn child. The baby was apparently stillborn because the medical staff was not informed of his "trans" status, so they didn't consider that he may have been pregnant. Now, we all know that males do not have the biological inners to actually carry a baby, so don't you think it would've been better for the patient to admit their actually sexual biology to receive proper medical care? Or perhaps you think it's justifiable to lie even in cases such as this?

I think a quote from one of my favorite movies is appropriate: "Sticking a feather up your butt does not make you a chicken"

[linay]

No, you let them make their own decision. Being intersex isn't a disease.

I didn't say it was. Being short isn't a disease either, but there are still rules about height in certain occasions. Where rules regarding sex is put in place, being intersex shouldn't give you any additional right to choose. In all other cases, it doesn't matter.

Sex is not as simple as binary no matter how much you want it to be.

It is as far as the normative effect of sexual difference is concerned: reproduction. There is no third sex for humans from which a new human individual can be conceived.

[rachcouture]

Yes, it is, no matter how much you don't want it to be. Some disfigured middle ground doesn't make a new gender. People have and will continue to be born with deformities, it doesn't make them "non-human".

And yet here you are, dehumanizing people by referring to them as a "disfigured middle ground".

I didn't say it was. Being short isn't a disease either, but there are still rules about height in certain occasions. Where rules regarding sex is put in place, being intersex shouldn't give you any additional right to choose. In all other cases, it doesn't matter. It is as far as the normative effect of sexual difference is concerned: reproduction. There is no third sex for humans from which a new human individual can be conceived.

It gives you every right to choose. It's your body, not a doctor's who thinks hacking body parts off an infant who has no say in the matter is somehow sane. This is how you ruin someone's life before they're even given a chance.

Stop relying on your high school biology education. Science evolves as we learn more.

[Melichoir]

Ill bite...

...Besides, saying men and women are "mentally" different from one another is... plain wrong, there's no peer reviewed study that proves that beyond going into a "nature vs nurture" debate (are women different than men because they're taught to be?).

Ill try to keept his brief: This is the "tabula Rasa" position - men and women are blank slates at birth and are conditioned by society. To quickly illustrate why this argument fails without to much effort, the core position of Trans Identity is that it is something people are born into. A genetic factor. Since this is the case, explain how can Trans people be Trans if men and women are blank slates? Blank slate theory would imply that its all a social construct and men and women are by and large interchangeable at the mental level. Are you insinuating that Transgender identity is all psychological and they can be taught to not be trans? Or are we going to be convoluted and argue that neurology and sex characteristics are 100% separate from one another. That the body may develop female, but the brain is blank (neither male nor female) and is only shaped by society tells us what a male/female is supposed to do? This wouldnt make sense either, because then it wouldnt matter what characteristics or traits we teach someone, they would 'be at home' in their body because the mind and body are completely separate. There would be no impetus for someone to feel dysphoria about their sex/gender because there is no baseline to start with.

You mention erasing homosexuality, but pushing that Gender isnt related to the biological and some of what we do is influenced by our sex and genes comes across as erasing Trans people. Itd be like saying a person's sexuality is purely societal, that people choose their sexuality. That would open the door for the pray away the gay argument that religious conservatives like, and it would be a valid argument under those specific terms if they were true. I tend to not think that this is a good line of logic.

Also, there are not only two sexes, that's invalidating intersex individuals who are born with both (and yes, before the inevitable "it's an exception, not the rule" then how do you treat them socially? it's not the same as being born deaf or blind, and we still have measures for them).

Humans are not binary when it comes sexes, but we are heavily bimodal - sex is a 'spectrum, but an extremely vast majority of the population are discernibly male and female genetically. This is the same for any other genetic variations that are not part of the average (which keep getting brought up.) Even those that do have genetic variances, most of those still display outward sex characteristics that are predominately Male or Female. The issue is framing, though. On one side of the argument, people are saying flat out there are only two sexes cause of Chromosomes. They are wrong, as intersex is a thing. The otherside, however, is playing up intersex and other genetic outliers in a fashion to say "Sex is a spectrum so saying male and female is irrelevant." This is disingenuous (and wrong) as it seeks to muddy the water by implying a false truth with facts taken out of context. The false truth being that there is no such thing as two predominant sexes and that everything is interchangeable.

The truth is more like this: If you have 10,000 gummibears and 4,999 of them are red, 4,999 of them are blue, and two are purple, the average gummy bear is gonna be red or blue, but you still have purple gummy bears in the set. Theyre all still gummy bears, but the set of 10,000 is made up of mostly Red and Blue Gummibears. It would be innaccurate to say there are only Red and Blue Gummibears, and it would be innaccurate to say that because there are purple gummibears, that there is no set that makes up the vast majority.

snip.

Hmm while its true the earliest invention of heels was for horse riding (as a lot of fashion in its roots start out as a means of utility), when it became more of a cultural fashion statement in places like france, it was designed for men typically. Usually as a means to stand taller, as well as accentuate the very same features you mention though for different reasons. It'd be like being perpetually flexed.

Beyond that, I dont see why men cant wear high heals in FFXIV. I mean we can argue keeping things in universe more visually consistent, and I think there might be some merit to that as I would hazard a larger variety of players (usually male) would (initially atleast) be wearing tons of more gendered clothing for the lulz. The "look at me run around in a dress and high heels! So funny!" (Before the 'see! sexism!" comment, Id hazard its more the oddity factor that the sexism factor. Wearing heels isnt a dig at women, so much as 'check out this thing which you dont see to often today'. Kinda of like wearing a space helmet and running around in a bathrobe would also be seen as peculiar by most cultural standards).

[rachcouture]

I'd argue it's a little of both, really. Anyone denying some sort of innate gender qualities on a biological level when things like hormonal baths are being studied is disregarding an entire population of both cisgender and transgender people alike. Still, there is plenty to imprint on people. See: the gender stereotypes present in this thread.

Humans are not binary when it comes sexes, but we are heavily bimodal - sex is a 'spectrum, but an extremely vast majority of the population are discernibly male and female genetically. This is the same for any other genetic variations that are not part of the average (which keep getting brought up.) Even those that do have genetic variances, most of those still display outward sex characteristics that are predominately Male or Female. The issue is framing, though. On one side of the argument, people are saying flat out there are only two sexes cause of Chromosomes. They are wrong, as intersex is a thing. The otherside, however, is playing up intersex and other genetic outliers in a fashion to say "Sex is a spectrum so saying male and female is irrelevant." This is disingenuous (and wrong) as it seeks to muddy the water by implying a false truth with facts taken out of context. The false truth being that there is no such thing as two predominant sexes and that everything is interchangeable.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. The issue is people outright denying both a. the existence of variations, and b. that sex/gender is a lot more complicated than what was taught several decades ago.

[linay]

It gives you every right to choose. It's your body, not a doctor who thinks hacking body parts off an infant who has no say in the matter is somehow sane. This is how you ruin someone's life before they're even given a chance.

Uh, what? I wasn't talking about hacking body parts, so don't even go there.

Stop relying on your high school biology education. Science evolves as we learn more.

Have we learned about a new sex for human reproduction?