New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Anselmet]

That's literally what i am saying because its true. Tough pill to swallow tough guy, but if you play a lot of lvl 70 content you will see people who literally do not understand the basic mechanics.

Of course there are people who do not understand mechanics. There are people who refuse to learn because they are lazy. But I'm someone who actually tries to help new people when I can. Often all I have to say, hey in x dungeon this mech happened this is what is going on now and most of the time they get it. And even then, I am not saying they bloom into perfect players through the msq just that it gives them a base to begin to get better at the game.

You do not need to be a high end player to be a good player and to know basic mechs.

I am not being disingenuous, you are just failing to understand the fact that the game doesn't hold your hand and teach you these things. As you get higher and higher some of these mechanics will show in MSQ, but usually after they are presented in side content/ lvl 50/60/70 dungeons.

And how in the world does this game not hold your hand to learn mechs if it funnels you into dungeons to encounter said mechs. You claim you're not being disingenuous but here we are once again of you not being able to understand that humans aren't rodents and don't need to repeat things ad nauseum to be trained on how to do a mechanic. It gives you a base to work from and once you get to 70 you have knowledge to fall back on and to start getting better at the game. You keep repeating yourself but you're not explaining yourself. So I really do wonder if you're requirement of knowing mechs comes from what type of content your run or how big your numbers are.

Your feelings are obviously hurt from how defensive you are about this. But sure, go ahead and think you are poking holes in my argument. And i never said i was full of wisdom but thanks for the compliment.

Awe did the little high and mighty cat not understand sarcasm? OooOooOooo I'm shook!!!

[van_arn]

Listen Wynn, What you fail to understand is how the game is generally designed. As a lower level player you go through content and you're basically gleaming the aspects of the game you enjoy more than the rest. If you enjoy a story rich experience? Good on you! watch each cut-scene with precise detail and do what ever side quests you find interesting. Heard that there's a golden saucer and are interested in mini games? your time in the game time is free, as long as you have the gil go and have fun. What's not okay is when you expect the average newer player to disregard what they enjoy and make the overall aspects of the game that they might not enjoy more difficult to trek through so they "Learn the mechanics". Maybe Bobby Jones is a simple guy and every now and then a boss or dungeon gives him some trouble. Let him enjoy having simple leveling/story/minigames content. FF14 has quite a lenient difficulty curve throughout the levels and I'll admit a lot of the earlier level content is dry, that doesn't mean you make a lot of the "Basic Mechanics" More pronounced than they need to be to "Make them better at the game". Personally I'll only play when there's content available that doesn't sum up to "Oh hey! theres new gear 2 item-level stronger than my current gear, time to grind for the next three weeks to get the full set and then rinse and repeat the next patch" By the end of it you as an toxic elitist will have maybe 2-4% more stats than the casual that doesn't spam endgame content. Newer/Casual players play the game to enjoy the parts of it they enjoy. They don't have to be your ideal gamer who devotes as much time as you do. Let them make mistakes, let them be inexperienced, let them play the game the way they want to play it.

Yeah, the first person to call someone toxic is usually the toxic one.

[Mrcs5]

Yeah, the first person to call someone toxic is usually the toxic one.

Well honestly, I never really said I wasn't toxic, but I'm not generally toxic expecting newer players to compensate to make my game experience better.
My toxicity stems from people being unrealistic and unreasonable. In this scenario Wynn is overall unaccepting of newer players making any blunders at all mechanic wise, and I think shes being unrealistic. You can't just make the game harder/more complicated if the mass populous are already enjoying what they enjoy. It would be different if the topic was major flaws of the game's architecture, but we're debating design philosophy.

Also @Van_arn, there was probably a more constructive way you could make your point, preferably by actually contributing to the conversation other than "Gacha" games.

[Anselmet]

I once knew a black mage that made it all the way to Stormblood, without a skip, only for them to give up on Stormblood and roll an alt because the open world mobs were "too hard."

Just about every time a solo instance fight is released in the MSQ there's a crowd of people on the forums complaining that a 4 button fight is too hard: see, the Burn/4.5 pt 2. Heck, I saw complaints from people with multiple 70s that the XV crossover event was too hard, and that had stuff in it anyone that's cleared Stormblood should know already.

Look, I find these failures absolutely hilarious-- but it really goes to show how bad the MSQ as a whole is at teaching players. If the MSQ did this job, these people would've hit a brick wall long before these issues arise. If the MSQ were intended to teach, then solo fights would not offer echo.

Heck, take any df group after 4.0 and you'll probably spot someone that ignored every lesson Stormblood attempted to teach, in dungeons or in solo fights.

PS- when I took that blm through FSOF they died 16 times in one run. Current witnessed high score.

I'm not going to defend and say that the msq dungeons and trials are flawless, I am saying that its a good place to start getting basics down. It's like learning how to add, subtract, multiple etc before going to learn how to do algebra. Its a base to work off of. Of course there are people that fall through the cracks. Some people will catch on and pay attention others it will take longer, but to know mechanics does not mean you have to go learn all the primal exs and savage fights. Does clearing and doing these fights make a better player? Yes, because I am a much better player from doing them. But before I started doing ex/savage I understood mechs and cleared normal trials, normal raids, and dungeons just fine. I had a base to work from. And might I add, I do a lot of casual stuff atm, especially now that we're at the end of the expansion. Most parties are unremarkable others lead me straight to the Tales From the Duty Finder. My point is that it does teach and that that person is wrong to claim you need to do high end to know mechs. That's just asinine.

[van_arn]

I'm not going to defend and say that the msq dungeons and trials are flawless, I am saying that its a good place to start getting basics down. It's like learning how to add, subtract, multiple etc before going to learn how to do algebra. Its a base to work off of. Of course there are people that fall through the cracks. Some people will catch on and pay attention others it will take longer, but to know mechanics does not mean you have to go learn all the primal exs and savage fights. Does clearing and doing these fights make a better player? Yes, because I am a much better player from doing them. But before I started doing ex/savage I understood mechs and cleared normal trials, normal raids, and dungeons just fine. I had a base to work from. And might I add, I do a lot of casual stuff atm, especially now that we're at the end of the expansion. Most parties are unremarkable others lead me straight to the Tales From the Duty Finder. My point is that it does teach and that that person is wrong to claim you need to do high end to know mechs. That's just asinine.

That's fair enough, but I suppose I don't see much of a difference in what these players would learn with or without a MSQ. I'm fine with a MSQ for the current expansion, to be sure-- but I'm not fine with five years of fedexing being required for a new player.

Like I said before, a new player already skips past the 1.0 story, so what's the harm in just skipping that new player to the gates of Heavensward instead. They'd have the option to NG+ the stuff we tell them to "just suffer through, it gets better in Heavensward." Heck, it would be literally impossible for a player to miss their job stone, too!

And I wouldn't have to keep telling sprouts wanting to play a DRK or AST that they have to suffer through 50 levels of a job they don't want to play.

(they never want to play a mch lol)

[aeoncs]

"I can't wait to level my mnk to 70 so I can unlock dancer and level dancer to 70!"

"I can't wait to play 90% of this games story as a class I didn't want to play, so I can play the class I want to play!"

"I love spending $60 on the game, $15 on a sub, $26 for a story skip, $26 for a level boost, so I can play dancer!"

Can you at least get your facts straight with all your whining?
You won't have to level to 70 or finish most of the story content to access dancer, a single level 60 job will be enough; same as having a level 50 character is enough to unlock SAM/RDM. So even if you want to continue that impatient brat scenario of yours, as a new player you'd only have to spend $25 / 21.75€ to get immediate access to Dancer and Gunbreaker - even less if you wait on a sale, like the one we have right now.
Also, since when does the game cost $60?

You complaining about the new player experience in this game, while being completely misinformed about most things, is just as ridiculous as daily roulette heroes judging the endgame content.

[Penthea]

i can do other things, possibly, but i cant play with them.

What do you mean you can't play with them? Most of the msq is just quests. The solo duties aren't even 10% of the msq quests. If you want to you can run around killing things with them. At this stage you're just searching for reasons to say the msq is a wall between you and your friends.

If you set aside two hours to play with friends, but the game only lets you do it for 40/120 minutes, thats a fail.

So then every trinity based mmo is a fail in your eyes, given that queuing for content will eat into your two-hour window which automatically renders the game a fail.

and 2 hours is 6 dungeons, or all your dailies, or a bunch of gold saucer, or progress in eureka, or 9 maps, or 8 potds. unless they are new, doing msq, then its substantially less time.

A lot of what you're listing here aren't even in daily lockouts. If you're annoyed that you can't fit a bunch of weekly and daily things, and help someone with the msq in a two hour window that's your own fault for giving yourself an unattainable goal. Not the game's. Two hours is a very small amount of time in any mmo.

And its not about me, when you invite a friend to a shared activity, they generally expect a shared activity. Imagine you invite your friend to go somewhere, then ditch them for 2/3rd the time.

But you can do most of the msq in a party. It's literally only the solo duties that can't be done in a party. If you think watching a cutscene or going off to do one solo duty every so often counts as ditching someone then you need to reevaluate what it means to be a reasonable person.

"I can't wait to level my mnk to 70 so I can unlock dancer and level dancer to 70!"

Actually you will only need to get to lvl 60 so buying a boost will be enough to unlock it. Zero effort.

"I can't wait to play 90% of this games story as a class I didn't want to play, so I can play the class I want to play!"

If you only like one class out of the huge choice you get from lvl 1 then that's just your taste not aligning with the game. There is quite a lot of choice from lvl 1. It's rare for someone to like only one class in the entire game.

"I love spending $60 on the game, $15 on a sub, $26 for a story skip, $26 for a level boost, so I can play dancer!"

You don't have to pay for the last two to play dancer. Stop spouting out this misinformation. You're making dancer sound like paid dlc in addition to buying ShB when all you need to do is get to lvl 60. You don't need to buy jump potions to unlock it.

[Physic]

What do you mean you can't play with them? Most of the msq is just quests. The solo duties aren't even 10% of the msq quests. If you want to you can run around killing things with them. At this stage you're just searching for reasons to say the msq is a wall between you and your friends.



So then every trinity based mmo is a fail in your eyes, given that queuing for content will eat into your two-hour window which automatically renders the game a fail.



A lot of what you're listing here aren't even in daily lockouts. If you're annoyed that you can't fit a bunch of weekly and daily things, and help someone with the msq in a two hour window that's your own fault for giving yourself an unattainable goal. Not the game's. Two hours is a very small amount of time in any mmo.



But you can do most of the msq in a party. It's literally only the solo duties that can't be done in a party. If you think watching a cutscene or going off to do one solo duty every so often counts as ditching someone then you need to reevaluate what it means to be a reasonable person.



it.

1)do you remember what the msq consists of?

its mostly talking to npcs in various locations and watching cutscenes. Some times you fight a small number of instanced monsters designed to be soloed by someone of that level. Following your friend around while they watch cutscenes, and one shotting the occaisional easy monster isnt really a great group experience.


2)queuing for content isnt needed if you have friends, thats one of the big advantages to friends, not sure why you are bringing that up.

3)why are you bringing up daily lockouts? my point was that there are tons of progress to be made in two hours of time. you can generally gain 200% more progress in anything when the game has no gates between you and your friend.


The best way to play with your friend, based on the way msq is integrated, is not to play with them except when they need an instance. The best advice is; just do MSQ, let me know if you need help. Because they will still have to do MSQ no matter how much exp/gear/etc they get. Playing with you in side content only puts them further behind the timetable.

playing with friends who have done msq, and those who havent is like night and day. You can go anywhere, and do anything you need effeciently, with all of your time. Leveling a new job? super fast, yall can play together the whole time, fates, dungeons, potd. You can hunt gear. Playing with someone doing msq, is mostly not playing with them.

this creates an incentive for people to skip story, and cutscenes. Many people who love single player rpgs, skip everything in online games, because they want to play with friends as soon as possible. The game makes people choose between playing with friends or doing story, the pressure of which increases the more content there is between the two.

ffxi was a lot freer in this respect. GW1 and gw2 both are excellent at having a lot of story, but being very easy for people to play together or do story on thier own schedules.

[van_arn]

1)do you remember what the msq consists of?

its mostly talking to npcs in various locations and watching cutscenes. Some times you fight a small number of instanced monsters designed to be soloed by someone of that level. Following your friend around while they watch cutscenes, and one shotting the occaisional easy monster isnt really a great group experience.


2)queuing for content isnt needed if you have friends, thats one of the big advantages to friends, not sure why you are bringing that up.

3)why are you bringing up daily lockouts? my point was that there are tons of progress to be made in two hours of time. you can generally gain 200% more progress in anything when the game has no gates between you and your friend.


The best way to play with your friend, based on the way msq is integrated, is not to play with them except when they need an instance. The best advice is; just do MSQ, let me know if you need help. Because they will still have to do MSQ no matter how much exp/gear/etc they get. Playing with you in side content only puts them further behind the timetable.

playing with friends who have done msq, and those who havent is like night and day. You can go anywhere, and do anything you need effeciently, with all of your time. Leveling a new job? super fast, yall can play together the whole time, fates, dungeons, potd. You can hunt gear. Playing with someone doing msq, is mostly not playing with them.

this creates an incentive for people to skip story, and cutscenes. Many people who love single player rpgs, skip everything in online games, because they want to play with friends as soon as possible. The game makes people choose between playing with friends or doing story, the pressure of which increases the more content there is between the two.

ffxi was a lot freer in this respect. GW1 and gw2 both are excellent at having a lot of story, but being very easy for people to play together or do story on thier own schedules.

You forgot the parts where, if you're "playing with a friend" you get to constantly drop from the party while they do yet another solo fight that requires you two to disband and not play together.

This is the single worst part about catching a friend up on msq. Not only are you not needed, but you get in the way.

[Penthea]

1)do you remember what the msq consists of?

its mostly talking to npcs in various locations and watching cutscenes. Some times you fight a small number of instanced monsters designed to be soloed by someone of that level. Following your friend around while they watch cutscenes, and one shotting the occaisional easy monster isnt really a great group experience.

No it's not designed for a group but by your other posts you made it sound like it was impossible for a group. It's not. If you want to accompany someone doing the msq, you can. If you want to help them do their quests, you can.

But you know, you could just make an alt character or use an alt class to play with your friend. What's wrong with doing that? Or are you one of those people who MUST play their main?

2)queuing for content isnt needed if you have friends, thats one of the big advantages to friends, not sure why you are bringing that up.

Because you need a specific number of friends to do it unless you plan on doing it unsynced. You need three more for dungeons and seven for trials. So if you have only two friends and don't want to unsync, you gotta queue.

The best way to play with your friend, based on the way msq is integrated, is not to play with them except when they need an instance. The best advice is; just do MSQ, let me know if you need help. Because they will still have to do MSQ no matter how much exp/gear/etc they get. Playing with you in side content only puts them further behind the timetable.

I agree but you kept harping on about how the msq quests are some massive wall literally preventing you and your buddies from playing together, and I was telling you it's not. You can accompany them if you want to.

playing with friends who have done msq, and those who havent is like night and day. You can go anywhere, and do anything you need effeciently, with all of your time. Leveling a new job? super fast, yall can play together the whole time, fates, dungeons, potd. You can hunt gear. Playing with someone doing msq, is mostly not playing with them.

You mean playing with people who have reached high lvl and those who have not. WoW does not have a msq but it didn't mean you could do everything together regardless of lvl. You cannot for the simple fact that low lvl players don't have much content unlocked. Unless you count spamming the same few dungeons over and over again as a wealth of content.

The game makes people choose between playing with friends or doing story, the pressure of which increases the more content there is between the two.

If there was no msq it wouldn't change the fact that low lvl players don't have much content unlocked so I don't see the point of this at all.

And many players do not feel the incentive to skip any of that even if they're a new player among friends who have been playing for years. A lot of players love that the game has both legitimate single player and multi-player aspects to it. Don't make sweeping statements like that. Not everyone feels the same.

ffxi was a lot freer in this respect. GW1 and gw2 both are excellent at having a lot of story, but being very easy for people to play together or do story on thier own schedules.

Well, newsflash; this is a different game. The story is central to the whole game. It makes sense to have to work through it given how it is written. If it was optional then it wouldn't be central, so then the game would no longer be the same.