Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[dustdjinn]

Here is a quick sketch I did of what I envision a male viera to look like build wise. Please note the floppy ears!

[Veis_Alveare]

As for the other ongoing debate, would be nice if we stopped tearing into each other and trampling each other to appease people with likely hostile intents who so far have shown no intention of changing their minds :^) (statement obviously general and there are exceptions) You might think you're "fixing your image" or what not but it's more fragmenting and divisive than anything.

This part of your post reads vague, if I'm misunderstanding I apologize. I would hope I'm considered an exception at this point.

Either way if people are going to refine their arguments to be for the inclusion of male Viera but without the victimhood narrative that is anything but divisive; it literally yanks the rug out from under the "don't give the SJWs what they want" argument which (from what I've seen) is one of the two major arguments against the inclusion of male Viera at this point.

There is nothing wrong with fixing the image of the pro-male Viera camp, frankly it could do with some fixing if it's going to garner any further support.

Here is a quick sketch I did of what I envision a male viera to look like build wise. Please note the floppy ears!

He's cute!

[BillyKaplan]

"don't give the SJWs what they want"

The biggest problem is acknowledging that as a valid argument against their inclusion...
Other than that only thing I can think of that's problematic and recurring is wanting Feol-esque models. But I like to think that ship has sailed when they confirmed the two female Viera clans we'll be getting.

[Veis_Alveare]

The biggest problem is acknowledging that as a valid argument against their inclusion...
Other than that only thing I can think of that's problematic and recurring is wanting Feol-esque models. But I like to think that ship has sailed when they confirmed the two female Viera clans we'll be getting.

The validity of an argument doesn't necessarily impact it's effectiveness.

If as a group the people who want male Viera didn't behave in a way that opened them to this criticism there wouldn't be this argument. While it may not be a valid argument for not including male Viera it is most definitely a valid criticism of some of the people who want male Viera.

Separating the reasonable people who just want this included in the game from the people screeching about discrimination is a valid way of gaining more support, the only "problem" is people wishing to hang onto their false victimhood narrative.

By all means give us male Viera but not because the devs feel pressured or shamed but because it's a desire of their playerbase that they can deliver on. I don't see how anyone could miss the huge difference there.

I agree about the Feol models though, happy that we're getting all adult models and I see no reason that shouldn't continue into the males if they become visible/playable.

[BillyKaplan]

The validity of an argument doesn't necessarily impact it's effectiveness.

The question is what's the good of SE as a business yielding to that argument? Would anyone unsub if they did add male Viera and female Hroths?

If as a group the people who want male Viera didn't behave in a way that opened them to this criticism there wouldn't be this argument.

The problem with that is that it's a nice bully mentality to go hand in hand with your claimed "discrimination/victimhood narrative".

While it may not be a valid argument for not including male Viera it is most definitely a valid criticism of some of the people who want male Viera.

Ad hominem

By all means give us male Viera but not because the devs feel pressured or shamed but because it's a desire of their playerbase that they can deliver on. I don't see how anyone could miss the huge difference there.

Because it's not a difference. You're trying to lump the people who want male Viera and female Hroths added into a singular hive mind group that's vague and blank when everyone has their own reasons for wanting it. The base reason is wanting to see them in game, maybe even play them. Some of those want the missing genders because they want genderlocks gone. Some, because the genderlocks and a lot of the implications that come from this collection of decisions plays on their own real life issues in their escapist fantasies. And it's every last bit as valid as the other end of the spectrum where people want it for as simple a reason as eye candy.

[Roda]

Here is a quick sketch I did of what I envision a male viera to look like build wise. Please note the floppy ears!

Those hip lines are very valuable and so are you.

[Nestama]

The biggest problem is acknowledging that as a valid argument against their inclusion...
Other than that only thing I can think of that's problematic and recurring is wanting Feol-esque models. But I like to think that ship has sailed when they confirmed the two female Viera clans we'll be getting.

I'm pretty sure you'd still be able to make a Feol Viera, anyway. The only thing they have going for them is a more Hyur-like face (Viera lore already claims they look similar to Hyur and Elezen, so that's one box ticked), blonde hair and shorter ears (you'll most likely get to adjust ear size). Anything else beyond that was just fan-canon.

[Veis_Alveare]

fake ad hom reeeeeeee.

An ad hominem would be me telling you that it seems like you can't read and talking to you is fairly similar to talking to a parrot who grew up around rabid SJWs.

That would be an ad hominem... you know, if I were to say it.

Blaming people for doing something worthy of criticism for the criticism they receive isn't an ad hom it's honesty.

[BillyKaplan]

something worthy of criticism

And that's where our views obviously differ on the matter.

[Melichoir]

I didn't see any homophobic slurs? Did I miss this because they got deleted? I'd be surprised if people actually went that far.

I think the people who pushed the narrative of "don't cave to the SJWs" were specifically focused on the part of the pro-male Viera camp who were calling SE sexist and homophobic for not including male Viera. I still agree with this narrative; people shouldn't fling words like sexist and homophobic around for something like this as all it does is desensitize people to them and devalue them as words.

Personally the thing that got me on board with the implementation of male Viera was seeing people push concept art and a general desire for adult-male looking male Viera as some less savory places on the internet had lead me to believe people wanted child-like models for them which I'm very against. This isn't homophobia or sexism, if anything it's... pedophiliaphobia? I don't know if that's a word but it's the place I was arguing from and still the place I would argue from if we got Viera that looked like kids.

I think closing yourselves off to people who don't like that (frankly very SJW) narrative of this somehow being sexism or homophobia is just dumb. You're losing potential supporters, not everyone is going to stick around like I did to have their minds changed and see that isn't what the majority of you are claiming they're going to see serious words being thrown around for no reason and treat it like every other time they see that happening; write it off as reactionary, regressive SJW bullcrap and troll/ignore/move on.

Tl;dr- disavow the discrimination/victimhood narrative and the kid-Viera people and a lot of these troll posts (or even genuine disagreement posts like many of mine) wouldn't exist.

I agree with most everythign except the 'kid-viera' aspect. Youre targeting people who are looking for a design aspect and then assigning a negative motive as a means to prevent it based on your personal feelings.

Like I said in an earlier post, almost any reason is pretty much a valid reason to want the opposite sex as its each their own - this includes male viera who arent sculpted Adonises, but are more cutesy and are a contrast to the amazonian female Viera. Your angle, from what Im reading, is "No, we cant have more cutesy male viera cause thats just a form of Paedophilia and thats wrong." (And for clarity, yeah Paedophilia is wrong, Im not arguing in favor of that, but rather that this is the insinuation youre placing on anyone who wants more younger/cutesy looking male viera.) Youre priming the argument by saying that the reason is flat out one way, when that may or may not be. At the end of the day, peoples personal reasons for wanting Male Vieras, or any aesthetic in any race, is not your business. If people do explain their reasoning, thats generally helpful and usually adds to the discussion, but its not necessary. It really is just as bad as calling SE sexist for not having male viera and female hrothgar. It's assigning malicious motives from the get go.

Heck, if you break down your position its "I only support male viera if they look a certain way that I approve." Youre not in support of male viera generally, you only support one vision you have of male viera. Rather than discuss that we should be getting male viera regardless of how they look and that we should be encouraged to argue the nuance of it and trying to explain the merits of what people are looking for. It's literally the sexist argument in reverse, or (as another analogy) people who dont want male Viera in any capacity cause of the eRP factor.