Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Awha]

A tank like any player is responsible for failures caused by them.

[Veis_Alveare]

wrong

I think I'm going to take a page out of Fyce's book and make this my last response to you as well since it's clear I'm basically talking to a wall.

Nothing - absolutely nothing you have said has been true or genuine. If you had a shred of intellectual integrity you wouldn't be making the arguments you are since they all are either arguing against strawmen that you've created (kicking people who need a minute to attend to something irl) or arguing from an illogical perspective.

I'll repeat it for those hard of hearing (or in some cases just hard-headed) tanking isn't hard, in fact at endgame it's significantly easier than other roles.

The only way you can come to the conclusion that tanking is more difficult is if you do a really, really bad job at everything else. A healer who has sub-17 cpm without a death isn't really equipped to evaluate the difficulty of healing since they're spending a ton of time doing absolutely nothing.

A dps that gets consistently outdpsed by tanks and healers also doesn't have a leg to stand on here because it's clear they don't understand the complexity of their job. Anything can seem easy if you do it poorly, I make great eggs and it's super easy; by the way do you mind them being a charred mess full of bits of shell?

If the shoe fits.... argue from it's misguided perspective I guess?

The one specific thing I'll touch on is this, though I'm pretty sure I've already pointed it out; the notion that if you want a 'speedrun' of a dungeon you should use PF and if not you should adapt to your group can very easily be turned around on you. If you want a 'slowrun' of something by all means set up your own PF. If you don't? Adapt to the party because 90% of the time everyone in a dungeon wants to just get it done quickly so they can move on.

[MariaArvana]

why are Tanks so rare that they need to be bribed with extra rewards like mounts .

Because people keep spouting words that makes tanking look like this highly inaccessible or extremely leader/responsible based role when it's one of the easiest things in this game.

I went into the Burn and Ghimlyt Dark the first time on WAR to help a friend, maybe the 2nd time actually tanking anything that wasn't HoH. I found it ultra easy mass pulling and tanking, just pull packs, spam overpower, spam IR -> steel cyclone for immortality on mass pulls along with pressing mitigation tools and enmity is basically impossible to lose if you're paying even the slightest simulacrum of attention to it. It felt like a cake walk in comparison to playing BLM/SMN with their proper damage rotations.

If anything, a top tier healer has the most to deal with during a dungeon, as they have to optimize their regen/OGCD usage on top of flinging as much dps spells as possible, co-coordinating their stun spell with the tank's mitigation and adjusting if they have a tank who doesn't optimize their CD usage.

[Physic]

Everyone is responsible for their own self...

no, not in this game dps cannot survive on thier own in this game. basically most of the responsibility for failure is with the tank and the healer. Dps mostly decide how fast you succeed, barring a few hard dps checks, but those are pretty rare.

[Physic]

Because people keep spouting words that makes tanking look like this highly inaccessible or extremely leader/responsible based role when it's one of the easiest things in this game.

I went into the Burn and Ghimlyt Dark the first time on WAR to help a friend, maybe the 2nd time actually tanking anything that wasn't HoH. I found it ultra easy mass pulling and tanking, just pull packs, spam overpower, spam IR -> steel cyclone for immortality on mass pulls along with pressing mitigation tools and enmity is basically impossible to lose if you're paying even the slightest simulacrum of attention to it. It felt like a cake walk in comparison to playing BLM/SMN with their proper damage rotations.

If anything, a top tier healer has the most to deal with during a dungeon, as they have to optimize their regen/OGCD usage on top of flinging as much dps spells as possible, co-coordinating their stun spell with the tank's mitigation and adjusting if they have a tank who doesn't optimize their CD usage.

tank has the most responsibility. Easyness has nothing to do with that. You lose dps, you can still beat a dungeon. You lose the healer, its highly likely you are screwed, but if you have 3 close to cap you might be ok, or a rdm. You lose the tank, the run is over. nobody else has good enimity, no one else has enough survivability.

they just have more responsibility.

[Xtrasweettea]

I had to pull out Microsoft Word for this response.

I will TL;DR this now:
• Tanks have extra entitlement thanks to supply and demand
• Taking away agency from tanks reduces supply of tanks
• non-tanks: BYOT (Be/Bring your own tank) or PF
• Tanks who wants full control: PF

Too Long:
After reading this thread over the past few days, consuming some pills for the headache, and laying out my thoughts on scrap paper, I am going to put my 1/50th of dollar in.

Let me start off with saying big pulls (or at least double pulls) are the norms in the 10s dungeons (50/60, 70, and Expert). The dungeons are made up in such a way non-single packs are doable. Doing big pulls is also the bottom of efficiency when it comes do handling these dungeons. Other efficient increasing skills, such as tanking out of tank stance, usually comes from being used to the risk of having more than three mobs hitting you. The tank that pulls big becomes used to being able to properly measure the risk and can then try different risky actions in other parts of the dungeon.

Now that efficient pulling method isn’t an over-night acquired skill to a point to where you can do this on the “feel” of the event.* It took me a while to get used to pulling in big dungeons. After that, it took me a few tries to get used to tanking bosses without tank stance on.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that. I think everyone who has participated in this thread (active or passive) understands that newness is a thing and getting used to increasing efficiency buy increasing risks over time is real. I think people would have no problem if the tank is new and they are still struggling but are showing that they are trying to meet efficiency.

This is what I think the argument for this thread:

Tanks do not have more entitlement than other members in the group, and therefore should be ok with either adapting to the group’s request or prepared for the consequences.

I agree with some of that argument. Tanks should at least try to adapt to the request of the group or face the repercussions for their actions or inaction.

What I do not agree with is that the tank doesn’t have any entitlement that may be extra or above other members within the group that would put some leverage within their favor. Currently, tanks do have some level of entitlement over the rest of the group.

Now, at this point, some of you will stop here and either respond without reading the rest. I implore you to read the rest and comprehend what I am saying as best as I can write it.

There is a problem somewhere where we have less tank players than DPS or healers. It might be with how we determined socially how the roles work within our groups based on the mechanics of the game.

When we group, we are not “partying” we are temporarily entering a short business agreement with you and up to X strangers. Your position within the agreement is outlined by which role you fill. When you enter a business agreement, you play to strengths to those in other roles. You do this by outsourcing your weaker strengths to them.

So:
If I am a Healer who groups up, my strength is to keep people vertical. I can initiate pulls, but I will be spending more resources to keep myself vertical than letting the tank, who is built to take hits, initiate pull. I will outsource pulling to the tank. I can DPS, but not as well as these two DDs. I will outsource some of my DPS responsibilities to them. In exchange, I will use my strength, plus adding the responsibilities I insourced by the Tank and DD to help us get to the end of this event and get our award.

This happens every group you enter. We don’t do this consciously. It is what we have been trained and condition to do over time.

Things like avoiding AOES, pre-planting yourself in a position when the enemies spawn to maximize your DPS or to avoid spawn triggered dangers, etc. fall to everyone. Not one role “avoids” AOE better then other. Even forcing an AOE into a direction falls to everyone, counting on the mechanic that triggers that AOE. For most AOEs, it’s just easier for the tank to point it at them, again playing to a strength outsourced by the DPS and Healer.

So, where do I think gets an extra level of “entitlement” than the healer and DPS? It is because there is a lack of them. Something is preventing most of the player base from tanking.
• It isn’t mechanical. I will admit that compared to other MMOs I have played, FF14 tanks have been mechanically easier to grasp and execute.
• It isn’t from too many unknowns in dungeons. There is a “familiarity” in all dungeons. They may have some weird quirk here and there, but nothing that screams I need to memorize this dungeon like the back-of-my-hand, or we will all die.

This brings me back to my point from above:

There is a problem somewhere where we have less tank players than DPS or healers. It might be with how we determined socially how the roles work within our groups based on the mechanics of the game.

What do tank receive from the DPS and Healer as in-sourced responsibilities?
• Initiating pulls
• Taking the hits and keeping the attention of the enemy on you
• Dealing damage, but not as much at the peak like a DD can
• Reducing as much damage as possible with both gear and cooldowns.

Very basic, nothing complex here.

How the tank does the above bullets is up to them. If they have the responsibility, they should have the authority to execute their responsibilities. That allows them agency.

Now, I am not saying they should be bad. If a tank cannot properly do any of the four points above, and it ends up falling onto the other two roles, who have outsourced those responsibilities to the tank, the tank is violating contract. Bad should be called out and dealt with.

The problem is when the tank is already performing the responsibilities, but the party wants to be the ones who are authoritative over those responsibilities.

In other words:

The tank has the responsibility and fault, but no authority to execute how that responsibility is handled. Which means no self-agency, but instead more akin to an NPC or slave.

In the OP, we have a premade group who has an expectation on how they want the tank to perform their duties. It is conditional outsourcing that the tank is not aware of upon joining the group. The party “requesting” that the tank pull big, is an attempt to override authority of the thank and removes some agency from the tank. Even when party added a caveat to protect the feelings of the tank player.

The removal of authority over owned responsibilities and reduction of agency is what causes people to be upset.

The tank has the right to keep authority over their responsibilities. They have agency and they are not an NPC. Just like the rest of the group has agency and are not NPCs. The tank in these types of instances are not trying to take authority from the other two roles. The tank is trying to keep their authority over their responsibilities. The rest of the group doesn’t like it, because they have expectations that are not being met, but are not required to fulfill the contract.

This reduction of agency and authority, but keeping responsibility and fault is what drives people away from tanking.** The Tank that lost their authority and agency will say something to other people within circles. That information will spread, and assumptions will be made.

This decreases supply, but the demand hasn’t really change. This will give tanks a social granted entitlement of having a little more weight when it comes to applying their agency to the group. This happens in every MMO that requires a critical role, but there is a lack of population to meet that demand.

It isn’t wrong that tanks have this entitlement.

If you don’t want tanks to have this entitlement, or believe they shouldn’t, then you need to change the supply versus the demand. Only way to do that is to allow the tanks to keep their agency.

At the same time, both Tanks and non-tanks should take some sort of responsibility here for themselves. DR is a continuous Schrodinger experiment. Until you get into your duty with a party, you will get every level of skill of each role within your party. You will get the tank that has a diet that contains glue up to the tank that will make you look like the glue eater.
• If you, non-tanks, want to control that randomness of a Tank who might fit in with your requirements: BYOT (Bring or Be Your Own Tank) or set up a PF.
• If you, the, tank wants to have a party that will be guaranteed to allow you to have 100% agency over you, PF.
• If you are ok with trying to play with the risk: DR. Be prepared for some pushback.

To close this up:
Be prepared to face the consequences of your actions when you take the authority and agency away from the Tank. The least worse thing is that they can say “no,” and the worst is them no longer being in the group. The group needs to decide if taking away authority and agency from the tank is a good idea in the long run.


* Anyone who has a mother or grandmother that cooks without any measuring, but cooks by intuition or “feels” knows what I am talking about
** This also drives people away from healing too, but not to the same degree.

[van_arn]

tank has the most responsibility. Easyness has nothing to do with that. You lose dps, you can still beat a dungeon. You lose the healer, its highly likely you are screwed, but if you have 3 close to cap you might be ok, or a rdm. You lose the tank, the run is over. nobody else has good enimity, no one else has enough survivability.

they just have more responsibility.

With how weak dungeon mobs are, tanks think the run is over when they sit out but it really isn't.

Tankbuster? Eye for an eye or everyone trades raises as if they're mitigation. Since square has tuned damage requirements so low, as long as you can figure out how to win by attrition tanks are only there to make the run less chaotic.

Healtanking arborium hard or various packs of trash is a heck of a lot more fun than just the typical tank and spank. Heck, a ton of healers relish the chaos just because it makes the dungeon less speak and spell.

If a tank drops or is kicked, keep pulling for the heck of it. That's actually one of the easiest ways to lose a bit of respect for the role in normal modes.

[MariaArvana]

tank has the most responsibility. Easyness has nothing to do with that. You lose dps, you can still beat a dungeon. You lose the healer, its highly likely you are screwed, but if you have 3 close to cap you might be ok, or a rdm. You lose the tank, the run is over. nobody else has good enimity, no one else has enough survivability.

they just have more responsibility.

So that run I did of Shisui where we lost our tank after the first boss and went on to clear the dungeon tankless & without a RDM was totally over right?

Not having a tank means you have to be creative on handling the dungeon but is still doable with cooperation & planning. Not having a healer makes the run near impossible without it turning to an ultra slow, Clemency/Vercure spamming fest (and the run is basically stopped dead in its tracks if you don't have a RDM since tank self-heals are extremely limited outside of burst windows). You can say Tanks have more responsibility all you like, but they simply make the run more convenient, not necessary. Healers are far more important to the run than tanks are.

Also, Diversion/threat drops exist. It's quite easy to make a dps a de-facto tank by having one control enmity while the other doesn't.

[WaterShield]

With how weak dungeon mobs are, tanks think the run is over when they sit out but it really isn't.

Tankbuster? Eye for an eye or everyone trades raises as if they're mitigation. Since square has tuned damage requirements so low, as long as you can figure out how to win by attrition tanks are only there to make the run less chaotic.

Healtanking arborium hard or various packs of trash is a heck of a lot more fun than just the typical tank and spank. Heck, a ton of healers relish the chaos just because it makes the dungeon less speak and spell.

If a tank drops or is kicked, keep pulling for the heck of it. That's actually one of the easiest ways to lose a bit of respect for the role in normal modes.

So much this. I've healtanked through dungeons before, always a blast. :3

[Hash_Browns]

tank has the most responsibility. Easyness has nothing to do with that. You lose dps, you can still beat a dungeon. You lose the healer, its highly likely you are screwed, but if you have 3 close to cap you might be ok, or a rdm. You lose the tank, the run is over. nobody else has good enimity, no one else has enough survivability.

they just have more responsibility.

I believe the run would suffer more if you lost the healer over the tank.
Simply put, healers can spam heal to victory in small pulls while tankless.

I'm not going to say that tanks are useless, obviously they make for a smoother run, as is the current system, but being more convenient doesn't mean necessary.