Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Physic]

You say I am okay with wasting the time of the player, but the same consideration is not offered to the rest of the group? At the core you are saying tank is rare so they are entitled to special treatment. We are players working together not products.

Also you are extremely upselling tanking while downplaying healing and dps to an insulting degree and I do not even heal or play dps roles.

while i disagree with his argument in terms of complexity (doing all that isnt that complex)

it is accurate the tank does have most of those responsibilities, and they are designed to be better at it. The fact that people want to kick tanks for pull speed, implies it is mostly the tanks responsibility.

Even by the kick standard of reasoning, the tank has more control over this, because he makes those descions, 2 people together only have veto power.

So yes, pulling is the tanks responsibility, controlling the flow, and their performance has the most effect on how well thats done.

Now to your original point, is it unfair to give tanks more leeway in how to perform thier role than other jobs? Yes i think its unfair. Kicking dps for having min ilevel gear, but still passing dps checks would be out of line. Kicking healers for not dpsing, also is a bit out of line.

but if you believe in kicking people for merely passing(not excelling) the role checks for each job, then there is no reason not to kick a tank as well, besides the fact you will probably wait longer to replace them. And there is no guarantee the next guy would be better.

kicking players when you already have a replacement is looked at with suspicion, and for good reason. Its kind of a dishonest use of random duty finder players.

[Hash_Browns]

Kicking healers for not dpsing, also is a bit out of line.

I get the feeling that a tank not pulling is the least of this games coddling issues if things like this are being said.

[Physic]

I get the feeling that a tank not pulling is the least of this games coddling issues if things like this are being said.

yeah the game coddles players, any MMO requires that it coddles players some where. This game is way more coddling than Ffxi was, so yeah they have to actually allow these people they have courted to be able to log in, do some content and get a feeling of progress.

the designated game mode for that standard low requirement play is duty finder dungeons.

i am all for harder dungeons, events, zones, raids, whatever. I am down with letting players make more decisions about how they play their class, pr what their classes are capable of, or high skill ceiling classes.

But i am against punishing regular/weaker players in the content made for them, in the grouping tool made for them.

i would definitely be down with say, ex dungeons, with some higher requirement for entering, and kicking for being substandard being the norm. But thats not what level 70 dungeons are designed for, they are low level content meant to be the easiest way to progress. Its the bottom floor, kicking people from that is basically telling them not to play the game at all.

Also, SE has literally said they design encounters, even the hardest ones, where healer dps should not be a requirement. And since gear is the primary determiner of dps for dps classes, using their dps as a metric for skill doesnt hold water when they are new/recent to he dungeon, because their gear means their dps will be low. Which is what happens with roulette a lot. People who pick roulette are filling up slots for people who specifically selected the dungeon.

short version, i am 100% down with more challenging, less boring content with more player agency, and stringent filtering, but thats not really what duty finder dungeons are about.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...
At the core you are saying tank is rare so they are entitled to special treatment.
....

To be fair...
Tanks already receive special treatment due to rarity from the game itself...

Tank mounts for doing duties with other players.

[Veis_Alveare]

So just to make a quick comparison, a Tank has to:
-Initiate every pull.
-Memorise which mobs do which attacks and how dangerous each one of those attacks are.
-Memorise mob layouts including the trigger mechanic and spawn location of adds.
-Dodge every bad marker.
-Watch Enmity bars to ensure no one peels.
-Ensure 100% uptime or as close to as humanly possible of Defensive cooldowns.
-Ensure mob packs are positioned perfectly to take advantage of Damage Dealer AoEs.


Meanwhile, the list of Damage Dealer responsibilities:
-Mash AoE.
-Don't stand in the bad.

And Healers:
-Mash AoE / ST nuke.
-Occasionally Curebomb the Tank.
-Sometimes Medica (or your regional equivalent) when AoE goes out.

Also, If Healers and Damage Dealers 'forget' to use a cooldown, no one notices.
Meanwhile, If the Tank 'forgets' to use Cooldowns, they die. Healers screech. Tank gets kicked for "Being bad".
Oh, and lets not forget that one wrong step from a Tank can cause a Cleave induced party wipe. No pressure though.

You're getting really aggressive for no good reason. Chill the fluff out.

Your lists break things down into much more detail for tanks than for healers or dps just to suit your narrative and it just makes your argument look weaker.

All you need to do as a tank is grab hate, keep it and rotate CDs when they're up. You don't need to memorize anything like enemy locations any more than healers or dps do.

You pull (in max level content at least) until you hit a wall, Sprint is all the mitigation you need for this. Pick up packs on the way with Overpower/your appropriate move.
If you have a competent WHM let Holy give you more or less total mitigation for 10secs, if not pop your strongest available CD.
If a lot of enemies are still alive pop another strong CD, if not pop a weaker one or even Conva to help your healer being you back up.

Repeat.

No one in a dungeon has a "hard" job since dungeons are the simplest party content that exists. A tank doing poorly can be covered for by a bad healer just like a healer doing poorly can be covered for by a bad tank. If either of these people are so bad you can't continue kick and get a new one.

You're acting like tanks have it so bad when, at a high level at least, they're perhaps the most forgiving role.

Now if you want to act like an entitled princess and pull one pack at a time that bad decision is on you and if you earm a kick for that choice that is also on you. We are all only responsible for our own decisions, make bad ones and sometimes you'll encounter consequences.

Edit: Also maybe you'd feel more responsibility as a healer if (hypothetically) you effectively leveraged the amazing AoE damage tools available to you. If you aren't already. There is no way to know for sure, obviously.

[Sylve]

You're acting like tanks have it so bad when, at a high level at least, they're perhaps the most forgiving role.

If they were truly the most forgiving role and not inherently more difficult to play properly, why are Tanks so rare that they need to be bribed with extra rewards like mounts and the In Need bonuses?
I'll give you a hint. Its because the role has more pressure on its performance than the other roles.
Its also other players that play a role in that increased pressure.
A missed cooldown on a Tank can be fatal. A missed cooldown from a Healer or DD has zero impact.

Now if you want to act like an entitled princess and pull one pack at a time that bad decision is on you and if you earm a kick for that choice that is also on you. We are all only responsible for our own decisions, make bad ones and sometimes you'll encounter consequences.

Let me make this even more clear to you:
The only 'crime' of pulling smaller is a slightly slower run.
The only 'crime' in min ilvl or imperfect play from a Damage Dealer is a slightly slower run.

Kicking players for their DPS is against the ToS as a form of harassment, Yet kicking a Tank for not pulling as many trash mobs at once as you want them to is grounds for kicking?
Despite that in both scenarios the result is identical. A slightly slower run.
Do you kick players for requesting a moment of AFK to attend to something in IRL for 'wasting' your time? They're slowing down your run and wasting your precious time!

If you want to impose a particular method of clearing, use the PF to find like minded individuals. Otherwise, suck it up that you chose the convenience of a random group over the control of making your own.

[WaterShield]

If they were truly the most forgiving role and not inherently more difficult to play properly, why are Tanks so rare that they need to be bribed with extra rewards like mounts and the In Need bonuses?
I'll give you a hint. Its because the role has more pressure on its performance than the other roles.
Its also other players that play a role in that increased pressure.
A missed cooldown on a Tank can be fatal. A missed cooldown from a Healer or DD has zero impact.



Let me make this even more clear to you:
The only 'crime' of pulling smaller is a slightly slower run.
The only 'crime' in min ilvl or imperfect play from a Damage Dealer is a slightly slower run.

Kicking players for their DPS is against the ToS as a form of harassment, Yet kicking a Tank for not pulling as many trash mobs at once as you want them to is grounds for kicking?
Despite that in both scenarios the result is identical. A slightly slower run.
Do you kick players for requesting a moment of AFK to attend to something in IRL for 'wasting' your time? They're slowing down your run and wasting your precious time!

If you want to impose a particular method of clearing, use the PF to find like minded individuals. Otherwise, suck it up that you chose the convenience of a random group over the control of making your own.

Because it's easy and boring? Where do people get off thinking tanking in this game is hard?

[Physic]

Because it's easy and boring? Where do people get off thinking tanking in this game is hard?

its easy and boring in the micro. It would probably be a bit more interesting tactically if they had more complex dungeons. Its pretty interesting in high hoh.

however, there is a lot more pressure and its more taxing even in low level stuff. You are basically the most responsible for fails, and you need the most knowledge of the dungeon, the fights, maintaining high level gear is more important. Lives are in your hands

[Fyce]

Oh boy. Wall of text here we go.
Tl;dr for anyone who doesn't have the time: Sylve is wrong.

So your time is inherently more valuable that theirs then? Remember, They're part of this "time wasting run" too.

Yes, the time (and will) of 3 people has more value than the time (and will) of 1 person if we consider them equal. Which we do... except people like you who think that tanks are the superior human being for some reasons.
You know, you're like these people holding the doors in the subway, thinking that their time is worth more than the time of dozens of people waiting for the train to go. Notice how in the video link I provided, that person gets literally kicked out? Yeah, well, that's what we also do to princess tanks sometimes. And it's well deserved.

So just to make a quick comparison, a Tank has to:
-Initiate every pull. --- Correct! At least you got one!
-Memorise which mobs do which attacks and how dangerous each one of those attacks are. --- Nope. Trash mobs that require that level of memorization are extremely rare. Besides, if anyone had to remember that, it'd be the healer in order to be able to adjust the healing amount required. Also, if you statement was true, then it'd be impossible to tank a new dungeon as you don't know what's coming.
-Memorise mob layouts including the trigger mechanic and spawn location of adds. --- Nope. You just open your eyes and press one button when needed. Adaptation is far more important than memorization. Same as above.
-Dodge every bad marker. --- Just like everyone else. Also, thank you from bringing that one up, as it allows me to say that tanks standing in bad is actually the role where that has the least consequences (so called actual "tank privileges"). So, you actually bring a point showing how other roles have more responsabilities than tanks here. Good job at undermining your own arguments!
-Watch Enmity bars to ensure no one peels. --- That's 0.2s of attention needed in a boss fight, and you don't do it for trash mobs as you should generate enough enmity for it not to happen anyway.
-Ensure 100% uptime or as close to as humanly possible of Defensive cooldowns. --- Nope. Otherwise you'd ask the same for Healers and DPS regarding their own cooldowns and uptime. It's not the sole "responsability" of the tank to play perfectly (it's actually no one's responsability. It's just everyone's goal we should all strive for). I don't know where you got that from.
-Ensure mob packs are positioned perfectly to take advantage of Damage Dealer AoEs. --- Nope. You just make sure you pack mobs correctly. You don't go out of your way to put enemies in a badly placed Shadowflare. It's the DPS job to adjust in that regards, not yours. Also, positioning can be summarized as: just walk a few steps. Moving your character is not only the tank responsability, you know.

Meanwhile, the list of Damage Dealer responsibilities:
-Mash AoE.
-Don't stand in the bad.

And Healers:
-Mash AoE / ST nuke.
-Occasionally Curebomb the Tank.
-Sometimes Medica (or your regional equivalent) when AoE goes out.

You go out of your way to make a pedantic and innacurate list of everything you could think of for tanks, detailing puny stuff, but you stay at the bare minimum for Healers and DPS. Good job at making you look disingenuous and dishonest.
But Veis_Alveare already told you that, so I'm just repeating what they said here.

Also, If Healers and Damage Dealers 'forget' to use a cooldown, no one notices.
Meanwhile, If the Tank 'forgets' to use Cooldowns, they die. Healers screech. Tank gets kicked for "Being bad".
Oh, and lets not forget that one wrong step from a Tank can cause a Cleave induced party wipe. No pressure though.

I don't know what you're talking about. There are countless tanks with a very bad cooldown usage that still manage to clear dungeons. That's how easy 50/60/70 dungeons are.
Besides, saying that "no one notice" if Healers and DPS don't use their cooldowns is simply wrong. Healing output is much, much lower, putting the party at risk, and DPS becomes way slower, which is definitly noticable. If you don't notice it, then that's not really my problem.
Finally, you don't "die" because you forgot your cooldowns. You die because the healer didn't keep you alive. See the difference here? The ultimate responsability of keeping the tank alive is not the one of the tank itself, it's the responsability of the healer. Your responsability as a tank is only to make the work of the healer easier. But you don't have the responsability of keeping yourself alive. So as long as the theorical healing output required for the tank to survive can be reached, it falls in the healer's hands. Not the tank's. Which definitly makes a strong argument about the healer actually having more responsabilities than the tank.

But no, You're right. Being the Tank is no more responsibility than a Damage Dealer. That's why Tanking is just as popular as Damage Dealing. Right?

Even if what you said was true (most of it is innacurate or just plain wrong), then it still doesn't give you a free pass at acting like a jerk that decides everything in a dungeon regardless of what your teammates think.
You're a party member. A human being playing a video game with other people. You're not some kind ruler taking your slaves to do what you want.

Again, if the majority of the group asks for something and there is no objective reasons for that not to happen, being a tank doesn't give you the right to be a selfish prick that only do as you please.
Not only that's MMORPG etiquette, but that's most importantly human relations 101. Don't be a jerk to other people simply because you feel entitled to be. No one is ever entitled to that.

Kicking players for their DPS is against the ToS as a form of harassment, Yet kicking a Tank for not pulling as many trash mobs at once as you want them to is grounds for kicking?

Both of these statements are false. You can absolutly kick an Ice mage or a DPS only auto-attacking for example. There is no problem with that. It definitly falls under the "differences of playstyle" category. However, kicking someone who is just underperforming is not accepted. The line isn't quite clear, but all it comes down to is the intent behind what the player is doing. And just like you can't kick a DPS not doing a perfect rotation, you also can't kick a tank who doesn't have a perfect defensive cooldown usage (as long as it doesn't make your party wipe over and over again).
This isn't comparable to a tank refusing to pull according to the party's wishes. This one is actually crystal clear: it's "differences of playstyle". No blurry line. In fact, it doesn't matter if that person is a tank or not. It's simply a case of an individual trying to enforce what they want upon the rest of the party that asked for something else. It's literally confronting the will of 1 person to the will of 3 others, like I said in my first paragraph after the first quote. 1v3. The 1 loses. That's all there is to it.

the responsibility of holding aggro, and surviving it, in this game means;
having initial pull the majority of the time, (Initial hate = increased enmity)
positioning the group so your aoe hate tools land and so minimal enemy attacks hit the group.
and controlling your tp, and when fights end/Begin, since your cooldowns, or tp being low effects how well you can hold agro and survive multiple hits.

Its not rocket science, but the battles are definitely designed such that the tank has more responsibility for pulling, since a failure to properly do the above is more likely to lead to deaths/wipes due to loss of agro/tank death.

That's the first time I've seen someone saying that "controlling your tp" is a tank's primary responsability, implying that put them above everyone else. As if healers don't have to manage their mana and DPS also don't have to manage their own ressources. This is getting to ridiculous levels.

What's next? People saying that tanks have the extremely heavy responsability of pressing buttons while the rest of the group doesn't really have to, which is more than enough to consider tanks as special snowflakes with god-like decision making powers? Well, that's more or less what people like Sylve are arguing so it wouldn't even surprize me.

---

Edit @anyone who would want to respond: I don't think I'm gonna answer anything else at this point. Feel free to have the last word if you want, I don't really care about arguing against nonsense anymore. It's exhausting. I made my point: nothing give you the right to be selfish in a group environment in a video game. Certainly not being a tank. Even if you try to justify it with "responsabilities" that don't really exist or that are not any heavier than the "responsabilities" of anyone else.

Is it so hard to simply listen to what other people want and do it if you can? Is it so hard to just be a nice person? Gosh.

[WaterShield]

its easy and boring in the micro. It would probably be a bit more interesting tactically if they had more complex dungeons. Its pretty interesting in high hoh.

however, there is a lot more pressure and its more taxing even in low level stuff. You are basically the most responsible for fails, and you need the most knowledge of the dungeon, the fights, maintaining high level gear is more important. Lives are in your hands

Everyone is responsible for their own self...