Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Ilan]

Guys this is Final Fantasy and if you are not a undergeared or/and completly green tank in a leveling dungeon with a completly undergeared or/and green healer and completly undergeared or/and green dps you do what made a WoW player famous once.

You scream LEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY JENKINS and pull every trash mob that is on your way to the next boss or porter. Its not rocket science.

[TaleraRistain]

Tanks do have greater entitlement. But consider your examples. If a DPS doesn't AoE, the party can still make up the DPS. If the tank can't handle big pulls, knows they can't handle big pulls, and then gets pressured into doing them and fails, then the party will go up one side the tank and down the other. They will get called a shit tank. There is a much greater stress on the tank to perform well and mistakes that cause wipes are not looked on fondly.

So yes, tanks do have greater entitlement, and it's justified.

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands. It's a real person behind that toon. I show respect by acknowledging they know their limits. I show willingness to work within those limits. It's called a party for a reason. We're all intended to work together as a team.

[Voltyblast]

Tanks do have greater entitlement. But consider your examples. If a DPS doesn't AoE, the party can still make up the DPS. If the tank can't handle big pulls, knows they can't handle big pulls, and then gets pressured into doing them and fails, then the party will go up one side the tank and down the other. They will get called a shit tank. There is a much greater stress on the tank to perform well and mistakes that cause wipes are not looked on fondly.

So yes, tanks do have greater entitlement, and it's justified.

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands. It's a real person behind that toon. I show respect by acknowledging they know their limits. I show willingness to work within those limits. It's called a party for a reason. We're all intended to work together as a team.

I definitely agree there, although it depends: it's less about stress and more about having to "lead" the party into the end of the dungeon, which means that we are needing to know our limits and to know when to go, when to pull and everything. Dungeons are cake but when I have to do some primal fights, I always have to know what I must do MORE than everyone else, because I'm the one holding the boss in place, making sure to move them when needed, and to resist their hits. Infact it's the closest thing to a stress test I can think of and sometimes I don't join farm parties until I do 2 or 3 practice fights at their fullest, because I require to know everything from the boss. And multiply that to 4 with raids!

And just like I mentioned in my posts, I don't like to fight teams and I don't like to feel entitled, but I have to defend myself from unnecessary and unwanted backlashes when I can: I don't like to be called a shit tank when I'm there for learning the fight - on a practice fight no less - and I don't like that just because I want to make sure things go my way, it means I'm entitled because I'm the tank: I always try to put the team into a good spot so we can end the run as fast as possible and one of the best pieces of advice I've gotten from my earliest days is to "know your limits", because not all tanks are perfect but that's when the team will help to fill the blanks.

Just like Talera says, "we're intended to work as a team", and as a tank I still want that teamwork to fully work. EVEN if I might look entitled or annoying or whiny, but as long as we get the run done and get our loot, that's all that matters right?

[van_arn]

Tanks do have greater entitlement. But consider your examples. If a DPS doesn't AoE, the party can still make up the DPS. If the tank can't handle big pulls, knows they can't handle big pulls, and then gets pressured into doing them and fails, then the party will go up one side the tank and down the other. They will get called a shit tank. There is a much greater stress on the tank to perform well and mistakes that cause wipes are not looked on fondly.

So yes, tanks do have greater entitlement, and it's justified.

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands. It's a real person behind that toon. I show respect by acknowledging they know their limits. I show willingness to work within those limits. It's called a party for a reason. We're all intended to work together as a team.

They are a shit tank if they can't handle this beyond 70, though. That's the whole point, a little flash spam and an occasional cooldown is all it takes. There's nothing to be afraid of. Even the necessary gear is included in the ilvl requirement to even zone in.

[Deceptus]

They are a shit tank if they can't handle this beyond 70, though. That's the whole point, a little flash spam and an occasional cooldown is all it takes. There's nothing to be afraid of. Even the necessary gear is included in the ilvl requirement to even zone in.

Seriously. Seeing skittish tanks at lvl 70 is pretty baffling.

[Makeda]

Despite tanking being the easiest role to do in MMOs, they are still pretty uncommon... and that is almost always due to threads like this one.

Nothing sucks the joy out of a task more than having a back-seat driver tell you how to do your own task...

Pretty much everytime I try to convince someone to try tanking or to 'try it again' they come back with "I just don't like the pressure" - and by that, they almost always have a story of being told how to do their own task when trying to tank, or seeing it happen to some other tank and deciding they don't want any part of that...

I pretty much ignore people who tell me what I should be doing when I didn't ask for help... That's not just true when tanking. You wanna play my role, queue as it. You wanna play my actual toon for me - queue with your squadron.

If I mess up my rotation and you know why - that's still annoying to be called on when I also probably know why... but even that is not as bad as you giving me a line-by-line set of commands over what keybind to hit next...

If I'm pulling to fast for my healer to keep up... that's something I need to learn how to spot on my own. And generally I can. If I'm pulling slower than you can handle - maybe I have my reason. Unless I start telling which heal to cast, or which fireball to cast, maybe you should bug off my back.

Of course I get it when I'm on something like my Au'Ra that is a healer / caster and she's on RDM, and... like last night, the healer asks me to cast the mana regen thing on her. Because she didn't try to dictate my entire rotation at me... she just asked for help.

And pacing... well that pretty much is the tank's "rotation." And the reasons it might be different than you expect go beyond just what your own MP or TP bar says.

Nothing worse than a back seat driver...

And if you don't think the tank is the driver fine - go pull that pull over there and see how long your toon stays alive. If you can do it... then fine. Kinda why I stopped making this rant back when I was playing WoW outside of 'Mythic+absurd' - because DPS there can generally survive anything 2-weeks after it comes out. So I let them tank it, and they do, and it's all good... But if they start spamming the WoW version of this "go go go", I go... back to the queue... without needing a votekick. Because I don't care if they pull if they handle it, but I don't settle for a back seat driver.

[Granyala]

I'm a WHM. I let my tank know that they can pull more if they're pulling small and we're not having issues. But I always leave the choice in their hands.

Pretty much. I advise the tank that I am capable of healing big pulls but ultimately I don't put pressure on him because I'm working under the assumption that tanks do not pull small w/o there being good reasons for it. It is very rare to get a tank that doesn't pull wall to wall and most of the time it's an easily spotted newbie.

[van_arn]

And if you don't think the tank is the driver fine - go pull that pull over there and see how long your toon stays alive. If you can do it... then fine. Kinda why I stopped making this rant back when I was playing WoW outside of 'Mythic+absurd' - because DPS there can generally survive anything 2-weeks after it comes out. So I let them tank it, and they do, and it's all good... But if they start spamming the WoW version of this "go go go", I go... back to the queue... without needing a votekick. Because I don't care if they pull if they handle it, but I don't settle for a back seat driver.

That's why I ended up healtanking the last two packs before the last boss of Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard), and why the party decided to kick the tank that wouldn't pick up adds.

Ultimately it's the party's decision.

I will say though, at least as a scholar-- nothing gets me going quite like healtanking. That fairy and those shields can work miracles!

[Aurelius2625]

All who are calling on tanks to do "what the party wants" have forfeited every right to be salty, bitch and moan when the tank dies because you wanted to force them to do what YOU wanted, rather than what THEY were comfortable with. Literally NEVER insult them, get mad, yell at them, or do anything toxic at all. You wanted that big pull, you OWN it for demanding it. Full stop.

There. That's some of that "taking responsibility" stuff that I hear about a lot. Take responsibility for demanding something that might go wrong. Do that, and at least you'll have the stones to own up to a bad call for when things go south.

If someone can do that, then I can accept them enforcing their playstyle enough to literally kick someone playing the game that has done NOTHING wrong... but you know... play the game?

Also, never make a mistake, or underperform. You know, if you're a "bad healer" and can't "play your job at max level" you shouldn't heal. You also shouldn't DPS if your dps is bad, cus you know... max level. Git gud scrub. You have NO RIGHT to be in MY party by being a "bad player". Don't ever pick up a new job, either. Or use a jump potion. How DARE you infringe in my right to speed kills and never wiping. You're max level, no excuses, slacker.



I hope that all of you calling for tanks to be "good" get served a nice taste of your own medicine. We're all mortals, here. Mercy and patience are free gifts that you can give without limit. No one literally logs on and says, "Today, I want to be mediocre, or even worse. Gee I hope I never get better and stay the same, and never learn to do more!"

I just don't understand how someone could be so cruel and vicious to another living, breathing human being to punish them for trying to play a game that they paid for, when it's not even EXTREME or SAVAGE we're talking about here. It's a dungeon. Just LEAVE and take the penalty if someone's playing offends you so much.

[DumdogsWorld]

Suddenly, I'm reminded of a guy I know irl who plays a tank. Well..."plays" is a strong word. He...resides in MMOs to fulfill his hobby of making people angry for a laugh.

He decided to ready-check the party before every mob.