Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Alaray]

I feel it's more group dependent, than any one player in the dungeon.

* I'll pull wall to wall largely despite other players in my party, unless explicitly requested not to. Mostly since I know I *can* do it even if the Healer isn't in great gear/or is comfy with healing, and even if DPS output is generally low. (And also why I generally do Dungeons on WAR, since it just... can survive for lengthy amounts of time while outputting pretty disgusting AoE damage).

* Before, when I was newer to the role and a bit scared of large pulls, I'd do them if someone asked me to in the party. The only way I got comfortable doing so, was when a healer said I could and they got me (they did have me). Kinda offered the same to a FC member months later scared of large pulls, but wanted to feel them through.

* If the entire group wants to go slower, I might inquire for why, but will probably do it.

* And I wait for people to be out of cutscenes prior to pulling bosses/do a ready check on the way (countdowns if requested, but otherwise I kinda just pull the boss post ready-check being done, largely just... most big CD's are already down from the last pull, but when people ask I do 'em 'cuz it doesn't really hurt me any. Dungeons sorta being the only content I tend to not do countdowns in lol).

* When I have a brand new tank, or someone who seems really uncomfortable, I'll probably offer some information here and there if I notice something that can be done better. Usually leads into more explicit advice as they ask me questions, and I kinda just choose to leave the pace to their own preference since they're learning, and I'd rather them learn than pull massive and stress either the healer in the party, or themselves too much.


In all of these case's it's not up to 1 or the other for a pace of a run. It's up to the party as a whole, and if the tank wants to go faster with a party who isn't saying anything, but isn't the best group, then it's on the tank to make up for the loss -- such as making up for DPS being low, or making up for an uncomfortable/inattentive healer. If a tank wants a run to be slower, and no one says anything, then w/e. But if they want to go slow, and the party doesn't, but the tank is uncomfortable, then they should mention as such, but it's also on the party to perform their roles to allow the pace they want to set with a less-confident, or less-geared, tank to succeed going forward.

[Gemina]

If a healer chooses not to DPS, I would say it's more then fair to kick them if you questioned them, and they still refused.
I've had that problem before in the Party Finder while farming Sephirot EX. An AST *refused* to do any damage, and 100% focused on healing every fight.

Being able to play your class in this game doesn't mean you just need to do the bare minimum. People aren't going to, and shouldn't accept the bare minimum from others.

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

[FFgame]

Nope, don't care. Pull big or go home.

[Mavrias]

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

no one is creating a new vent thread. op asked for opinions about a situation they werent even directly involved in. did you even read the original post?

also you dont always have to wait for a rando replacement. people have linkshells, FCs, and even discord as was mentioned in the OP.

[Vahlnir]

It is all supposed to be a team effort so, ideally, the group should be finding a common ground to finish whatever content is being done. Imo, both sides are kind of in right and the wrong. While 1 person shouldn't expect 3 others to comply with their playstyle, 3 people shouldn't have to comply to the playstyle of one person. It's a "difference of playstyles" thing.

[hydralus]

Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

You can totally do that as other roles too. You can do an overpower or just autoattack and AFK, it'll be fine if we're just talking dungeons. I've tested it out myself and there's been no issue. It just generally isn't done.

[Rongway]

In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage

Players are allowed to have basic expectations. Here are mine.

• Understand basic arithmetic and inequalities. e.g., 9x100 > 3x100 > 240
• Don't insult anyone.
• Don't purposely waste everyone's time.

DDs who refuse to AoE or who cast only ice spells fall into two categories.
(A) They don't understand which actions are more effective. If they are in this category, I will ask them to please AoE; or explain the basics of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.
(B) They understand which actions are more effective but are willfully choosing not to use them. If they are in this category, they are purposely wasting everyone's time.

I'm not asking for 99th percentile play. Just that they don't sit there performing single target actions when they could be doing literally three times as much damage per GCD by AoEing. If they understand what actions are more effective, why would they not use the more effective actions.

That said, I probably wouldn't kick them unless they became hostile. I'd just sit there and judge them while I spam my 1200 potency actions.

[Awha]

Players are allowed to have basic expectations. Here are mine.

• Understand basic arithmetic and inequalities. e.g., 9x100 > 3x100 > 240
• Don't insult anyone.
• Don't purposely waste everyone's time.

DDs who refuse to AoE or who cast only ice spells fall into two categories.
(A) They don't understand which actions are more effective. If they are in this category, I will ask them to please AoE; or explain the basics of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.
(B) They understand which actions are more effective but are willfully choosing not to use them. If they are in this category, they are purposely wasting everyone's time.

I'm not asking for 99th percentile play. Just don't sit there performing single target actions when you could be doing literally three times as much damage per GCD by AoEing. If you understand what actions are more effective, why would you not use the more effective actions.

I agree with you, if I was directly involved with the group in question before I filled in for the tank they removed all I would expect of them is to try.The important aspect for me is the ability to try. I do not care if someone tries and fails horribly, the fact they tried is all that matters. I will brick wall on the content for hours if need be if I genuinely feel the group is putting forth their best effort. Mainly that is where my confusion came from within the my discord group because people in said group were bashing those for removing the tank, yet they complain when they run into ice mages, non aoeing dps, melee rdm etc . . . and for me I see no difference between players like that not trying and sticking to what they feel comfortable with be for whatever reason and the tank in question not even trying to do larger pulls.

Granted I was not their so I can only go based off what they said in discord, so overall for everyone in the thread I apologize about the lack of details and missing context, was not present so only sense of context I get is from the players that were part of it.

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

May I ask not sure if you have already answered it, but what you would say is a valid reason to use the vote kick feature? Should it only be used for extreme cases such as a someone going afk for an extended period of time? Someone being belligerent? Also this was not meant to be a vent thread more so a thread seeking differing views on the topic, since clearly people have differing views and I wanted to get a better understanding of every side.

[Doozer]

I know other players for some reason want to do everything as fast as possible (and then sit and AFK for 6 hours), but I don't. I like to actually enjoy the game, not just get to the end. So I'll tank at whatever pace I feel like, depending on the dungeon, if I know the healer, and depending on how well the healer is doing. I don't care how fast you want to go. Kick me if you want, I'll just re-queue in 1 second while you wait 5+ minutes for a new tank.

I really don't get the obsession with having to do things so quickly. What hurry are you in? Do you have a dentist appointment in 20 minutes? It's like when people blast through a game at record pace and then complain it was too short.

[Feidam]

Correct me if i’m Wrong, but isn’t this type of behavior frowned on with new rules now. Pretty sure they went out of their way to tell us not to try force our play styles on someone else.

Personally, I could careless. If they want to pull smaller pulls then by all means. The dungeon still gets completed. I did the same the rotations anyway and still enjoyed myself. If I am looking for a challenge then I premade.

The only time I speak up is at the beginning of an expansion when most of the time it’s hell and we are failing because a tank is trying to do too much and not using cooldowns.