Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

[hydralus]

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

I've seen a non-zero number of bards not use AoEs at all so that's likely where it's coming from. It's not a large number - maybe 5%, but it's enough to stick in people's minds. Granted, I don't think complaining about these people will accomplish much other than venting some frustration because they likely don't care.

And as an aside I'm sure they, like many others, don't really think about it until the conversation is brought up. We don't wake up and log in and think, "Damn those bards who don't use AoEs, I hate them."

[hydralus]

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

But... doublecast works with scatter as well so you get 600 potency per doublecast against 3 targets rather than the 180+310 (490) against a single target. Even with later buffs to jolt/impact potency it's still a maximum of 580 potency single target vs 600 against 3.

[DPZ2]

Thanks for trying to aducate me but the point you are missing is that a normal pull is not one single mob, its several groups of mobs and if you don't use your AOE's in a situation like this you are a subpar player.

A 'normal' pull is a group of 3 mobs. That's the context of the original discussion, and it was accepted by the poster.

Do not count on DPS to use their AoE effectively if the tank also don't take into account positioning, timing, and DPS job.

As a dragoon, when a tank pulls three packs of mobs who encircle the tank, and every one of those mobs has a circular AoE, using straight-line AoEs while dodging mob AoEs doesn't work well.

As a summoner, if Aetherflow is on cooldown neither Bane nor Painflare is available. Shadow Flare is probably on cooldown as well, that stupid 60s recast isn't meant for speed-running an instance. Can't speak to Akh Morn, since my summoner is only level 69, but I don't really see using that against mobs.

As a Bard, Quick Nock and Rain of Death work well against packs of mobs, but if you don't use Straight shot and [Venemous/Wind] bite first, your songs aren't going to be as effective, and you'll suffer a DPS loss because it's your Bite procs that enhance your crit chance.

Spamming AoEs without thought to the other parts of your rotation is also suboptimal.

[van_arn]

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.



That is the point can not tell you that will understand because it is beyond me that kind of concern on how other players play their character roles, for me doesn't make any sense.

However agree with you that is important to talk about it at a level it does not upset players or cause them fear mongering to try and continue to enjoy the game, not knowing their irl difficulties for not playing their character roles according your ideal procedures, or someone else ideal aka perfect procedures.

Important is not to discourage recently joined players or casual players to keep enjoying the game just cause a butt-hurt doesn't like the way they play it or lives obsessed with their playing.

The issue is a bard that doesn't use aoe in a group pull isn't playing their role. They aren't playing any role. A chocobo companion could fill their slot and it wouldn't make much difference.

When you can be replaced by a companion, you're not worth your place in the party and the only thing you should earn is a kick.

[DPZ2]

But... doublecast

I'm assuming you mean Dualcast.

Potency calculation is 490 against a single target vs 200 (each) against multiple targets.

Assuming that the mob you target is within range of all the other mobs, AoE is the winner, which makes the single target rotation suboptimal, but not necessarily less effective.

It greatly depends on which mob you target as well, as I find out every time I use Tri-Disaster/Bane followed by Painflare, only to realize I only caught 3 of the 9 attacking mobs.

"Enemies nearby" does not necessarily mean you will hit all the mobs, although experience over time will get you to the point where you can maximize the number hit.

[Renato]

For example, it's rather standard to expect a level 70 tank player to understand Enmity and how it works. Yet I meet an insane amount of level 70 tank only players that do not understand the basics of enmity and how to hold aggro.

Those same people, if you criticize their actions because they don't understand basic game mechanics at pretty high levels if not max level itself, respond with insults, toxicity, "you don't pay my sub", "i'm new so i'm entitled to wiping raids because im learning", "i play how i want to", "you don't control my account" and so on.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who join the game because they were recommended to play it by a friend. These said friends can't do a large majority of the game with their friends because getting through 2.0 is a massive slog and even after that they have to play through 3.0 as well to even start "doing stuff" with their friends. A lot of these people just buy a jump potion to begin on lv60 as a DRK or War because it has a sword or a WAR because it looks cool not realizing how tank mechanics work or care to take the time to really learn...It will probably be the same with the Gunbreaker.

Although most people find the dungeons really boring, they do help you get used to your skills and when to use them. Many people skip through this because of the jump potions. There's also been a huge influx of players from other MMOs as well that aren't used to FFXIV being so story driven and just skip through everything to get to the "engdame" and don't take the time to actually learn and enjoy their job.

I've seen some tanks that aren't as good at lower levels as they're just learning but not so much in endgame. And the few that I have seen have taken cristicism well taking advice to heart. (I MT DRK btw.) Those people you either kind of keep letting fail until something finally clicks or just abandon and find another group. It's not worth arguing or the frustration.

[Ilan]

A 'normal' pull is a group of 3 mobs. That's the context of the original discussion, and it was accepted by the poster.

Do not count on DPS to use their AoE effectively if the tank also don't take into account positioning, timing, and DPS job.

As a dragoon, when a tank pulls three packs of mobs who encircle the tank, and every one of those mobs has a circular AoE, using straight-line AoEs while dodging mob AoEs doesn't work well.

As a summoner, if Aetherflow is on cooldown neither Bane nor Painflare is available. Shadow Flare is probably on cooldown as well, that stupid 60s recast isn't meant for speed-running an instance. Can't speak to Akh Morn, since my summoner is only level 69, but I don't really see using that against mobs.

As a Bard, Quick Nock and Rain of Death work well against packs of mobs, but if you don't use Straight shot and [Venemous/Wind] bite first, your songs aren't going to be as effective, and you'll suffer a DPS loss because it's your Bite procs that enhance your crit chance.

Spamming AoEs without thought to the other parts of your rotation is also suboptimal.

A "normal" pull is not 3 mobs. 3 Mobs is a small pull.

Really? You dot mobs first as a BRD? Again thanks for educating me but i know that too. The point is, and yes i WILL name the number of mobs extra for you now, if a tank pulls 6+ mobs, that are not impossible to hit properly with an AOE, and the dps still uses single target skills he/she is subpar.

[VirusOnline]

With the failure to actually provide any teaching, they just continued down the path of idiot-proofing the game which happens when you leave players to have to research literally everything about the game and thus have to start balancing around people that have literally no clue.

Correct, now you see what the thread and the meaning of standards is getting at. Because people believe they shouldn't have to the least bit of research outside of the game, don't read the tooltip, don't ask for help, (the list goes on) standards fall drastically and with it competence. And it's even more a shame that WoW raiders rely on a 3rd party program to tell them what to do every step of the way and if I remember the raiding scene everyone had that program.

When it comes to learning ...
Each classes' combo system' are written in the tooltips. Buttons that glow commonly signal a combo. The beginner courses teach you not to stand in the bad. Teaches you to protect the healer, and on. The game does provide these basic things. What you seem to suggest is a nuanced system that can pull everyone 'up to competent speed'. No single system can pull everyone up to intermediate level because people learn differently and at different rates. This is where the utilization of resources in and/or outside of the game come in (tooltips, guides, videos, discords, community). Again, this is simply the reality.

Also "This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies."
None of those actually give any relevant feedback on performance.

Stone, Sky, Sea and the likes indeed give feedback on performance. It tells you whether you have the performance to defeat a boss.

Practice dummies allow you to practice a rotation, the feedback being that you can take your time to practice over and over again until it sticks.

HoH and PotD allow you to 'level' and experiment with those new abilities/incorporate. Or simply allow a player to become comfortable with a class in a low pressure environment.

Trials and dungeons allow you to go in, play with the community (which can give feedback), and exist to help you practice in a live environment your abilities.

There is feedback, its just different types of feedback.

None of these things, ask for competence, give any feedback on competence or even guide you towards competence.

This is subjective to the player and their reasons for being there.

People who will naturally want to improve can use them as places to practice, but they won't in of themselves actually help improve anyone.

Again, this is subjective to the player and their reason for being there.

On this note we'll have to agree to disagree on whether a player shouldn't/should have to research to better themselves.

[Cheremia]

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

I had bards that told me they don't aoe because their aoe is worse than SMNs, i had Mnks not aoe for big bulls, i had a lot of things, even if i asked if they could aoe, they don't. It's not the worst thing but why do you not if there's 10 mobs on screen? There's enough people not aoeing. You may aoe, i may aoe, i get more commends on brd than any other class for some reason. You must be really lucky to not ever encounter those 1o1 classes that do not find their aoe buttons, but it's a thing?

Also, are you telling me it is okay for a MCH to do less damage than both of the healers(the tank was even worse) in orbonne since they were busy jumping aorund and looking at other stuff? While the other 3 of our dps all did 3k+ more damage than him? Happened today even! A few hours ago! He died often because he was busy jumping into an aoe, so me, the whm said "less jumpy, more attacky" where did that go? In him dying again and again.

I literally said what i do not expect from people. The only thing i want from them is TO PLAY THE GAME? Why would you argue with me if that's the only thing i expect from ANYBODY?
Play the game and pay a little attention? What monster must I be to expect that.

Do you think it's fun to carry people that REFUSE to learn after 4+ wipes that they JUST have to pay a LITTLE attention to mechanics? Even if you call the mechanics out? Even if people mark themself to lead them?
I am the last person that leaves, i'll try my best to help but what do you think will happen if all that turns into "omg you're all such toxic raiders" while these toxic raiders helped with all mechanics, died the least(only to enrages), healed everybody, broke their backs trying to keep other alliances alive.
I only do extremes in PF and 24mans, what? The only thing i do is pay attention and trying my best not to die on everything.
I had one really frustrating Midgardsomr run where 2!!!!!!!! healer lb3 were used and at the end, still everybody but me(tank) friend (tank) and a healer (sch) was alive and the SCH WENT through AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL the mechanics first and went really in depth with them and only 2ish people were new to it.

Don't understand what that has to do with "oh you can't critic how somebody plays their class!!!!!!!!!!!" while every class can aoe and every class can... not die? Is paying attention to the game you chose to play such a crime that you're trying to talk down to me while i say "i don't care how well you do if you're trying".

YOu don't even KNOW how proud i am when i try to help newish and really nervous whms what they can do, how they can do it and that they can chill a little and they actually take it to heart, use that 1 holy i told them they CAN do since it helps THEM a lot and then you notice that they notice it's a good thing and use it more and more and get way more comfortable over the dungeon? Or Teaching newer bards things? I see them try and i'm the proudest mom of ALL TIME.


Don't talk down to me when i have little standard.

[supergiz]

Yeah I get there is a minimum expected standard at high levels assuming players know the basics of their job. The problem comes when people expect too much from somebody who is just playing the game casually.

I know a lot of players on this forum play this game pretty hardcore (I mean it's an official forum and most of us have hundreds if not thousands of posts).

But the thing is a majority of the playbase are casual players who might play the game for 2-4 hours a week. They are the ones that make this game so successful with the high numbers. It's always a battle I imagine Square Enix plays. Appeasing the very vocal few hardcore players while keeping the majority playerbase happy.

Basically I don't expect much of the casual userbase and you really shouldn't expect much. Not everyone takes this game seriously and that is perfectly fine.